Airblue down near Islamabad
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25 degrees of bank, 700-800 FPM sink, 180 degree turn, starting at approx. 700' AGL, SOP for TGU.
We just ignore the screaming because avation rule 1 states "fly the airplane".
We just ignore the screaming because avation rule 1 states "fly the airplane".
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Effoh 300 hrs on type, and the captain had how many 320 hrs?
My money is still with the gentleman who suggested a circling approach with some low level maneuvering to avoid a shower or two on downwind.
You may be surprised to find that fighter pilots in some areas of the world are not the best pilots up there. Don't ask me how it's possible for an ex fighter jock to have problems with basic flying, but I have seen this myself.
My money is still with the gentleman who suggested a circling approach with some low level maneuvering to avoid a shower or two on downwind.
You may be surprised to find that fighter pilots in some areas of the world are not the best pilots up there. Don't ask me how it's possible for an ex fighter jock to have problems with basic flying, but I have seen this myself.
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25 degrees of bank, 700-800 FPM sink, 180 degree turn, starting at approx. 700' AGL, SOP for TGU.
We just ignore the screaming because avation rule 1 states "fly the airplane".
We just ignore the screaming because avation rule 1 states "fly the airplane".
Nobody's gonna scream unless the G-forces get out of hand! You should do a 1-G chandelle and give the customers their money's worth
-drl
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Captain and First officer both are experianced
The Captain of this ill fated aircraft was well airline experianced pilot and flown B747,A310's 737 and have more than 1000 hrs as a captain on this type( A321) and is well reputed. The First Officer was also serving the airline for last one and hlf years and have more then 300 hrs on the type and both of them have excellent flying record
The Captain of this ill fated aircraft was well airline experianced pilot and flown B747,A310's 737 and have more than 1000 hrs as a captain on this type( A321) and is well reputed. The First Officer was also serving the airline for last one and hlf years and have more then 300 hrs on the type and both of them have excellent flying record
I think what most of the professional pilots who read this thread are trying to understand, is how this aircraft ended up at low level so far away from the airfield (and heading further away from it) when they were supposedly doing the equivalent of a tight visual circuit. They appear to have been attempting VFR flight in IMC and the usual outcome has prevailed... As soon as the airport disappeared from sight an immediate climbing turn towards the runway should have been started but why wasn't it?
Many points have been made about the serviceability of TAWS/EGPWS, map shift, etc. but what the crew attempted, circling off an ILS to the reciprocal runway, is a *purely visual manoeuvre*. No fancy gadgets necessary.
It appears to be a massive loss of SA, especially for pilots who were familiar with the terrain around the airfield. Where did they think they were, up to the last few seconds before impact and what were they trying to do before that? Will we ever know?
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Originally Posted by ManAda
My money is still with the gentleman who suggested a circling approach with some low level maneuvering to avoid a shower or two on downwind.
a) they were not 'downwind'
b) granted we might be 'flexible' with the odd shower during a circle, but routing off 30 degrees for minutes???
Fullwings - I appreciate the help in trying to re-focus this
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Attention diverted??
Recalling the Everglades L1011 crash, where all 3 crew were focused on a gear light and gently flew the aircraft into the ground, I have a feeling that a similar event may have occurred here. The two may have thought that they were tracking down-wind, without assiduously checking their navigation. It could have been the MCDU tying both of them up, perhaps setting up a Secondary Flight Plan that had been deleted, perhaps re-entering Performance data. Who knows? By my reckoning the crew flew for nearly 2 minutes on an extended 45 degree leg before coming to grief, having made no left turn. (Of course, it is entirely possible that an incapacitation or a tech problem could have taken the pilots' attention away from the navigation, but as this was a visual procedure, none of these excuses warrant the subsequent event)
The CVR may provide the best clues to this accident. I hope so.
The CVR may provide the best clues to this accident. I hope so.
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Just to comment on some estimates which have appeared here, the crash site is shown approximately in This FlightGlobal article by Leithen Francis which appeared on the 27 July. The article states that
but they don't say from which point on the airport is being measured. It is consistent with being 9.7 nm away from the approach end of RWY 12. I note that the Islamabad VOR is actually at the approach end of RWY 30, so further away. The graphic with scale in this week's paper Flight International (3-9 August) is roughly consistent, so Flight is sticking by these figures.
Circling should take place within 5nm, according to Flight, so the impact occurred at almost twice the allowed circling radius, not just the 7 nm which has been mooted here.
PBL
Originally Posted by Leithen Francis in FlightGlobal
The crash site is in the Margalla mountains and satellite images show the crash site is 9.66nm from the airport
Circling should take place within 5nm, according to Flight, so the impact occurred at almost twice the allowed circling radius, not just the 7 nm which has been mooted here.
PBL
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...with or without glasses
this is what pilots might have seen JUST before commencing the CIRCLING,
and no wander, two times reporting to have a RWY in SIGHT
But which one they saw ??
(RWY must be positively identified with DME or GPS (FIX to APT) and CRS of course..)
The "ONE" on right is much longer (it is not RWY but a street) and would take them straight to where they finished the flight..
Barit1 and Mike-WSM Thanks for help
[/IMG]
this is what pilots might have seen JUST before commencing the CIRCLING,
and no wander, two times reporting to have a RWY in SIGHT
But which one they saw ??
(RWY must be positively identified with DME or GPS (FIX to APT) and CRS of course..)
The "ONE" on right is much longer (it is not RWY but a street) and would take them straight to where they finished the flight..
Barit1 and Mike-WSM Thanks for help
[/IMG]
Last edited by Green Guard; 6th Aug 2010 at 14:00.
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There are some inaccuracies of concern in the Airblue CEO's supposed statement - 'crash site is north/northeast of the airport' and ATC stopped it landing on 30 (as far as I know ATC cannot do that).
Apart from the loss of SA we must be looking at, I seriously wonder if PIA have some sort of unofficial 'procedure' for a back-course on 12 that this ex-PIA Captain might have been aiming to fly? It might even have been 'known' to a mil pilot as well. I think 25/2600' would actually 'do' (if unwise) if you stayed away from the hills for such a 'home-grown'. I really wish 'Mr Reticence' would come clean on this, having shot the hand grenade into the crowd in post #83, and now claiming '27 years' of 'flying' in and out of Islamabad - don't pretend you don't know! It would be of relevance to this accident, especially when we hear of the dramatic lack of SA in a PIA crew in AMS of which he/she speaks in later post.
Apart from the loss of SA we must be looking at, I seriously wonder if PIA have some sort of unofficial 'procedure' for a back-course on 12 that this ex-PIA Captain might have been aiming to fly? It might even have been 'known' to a mil pilot as well. I think 25/2600' would actually 'do' (if unwise) if you stayed away from the hills for such a 'home-grown'. I really wish 'Mr Reticence' would come clean on this, having shot the hand grenade into the crowd in post #83, and now claiming '27 years' of 'flying' in and out of Islamabad - don't pretend you don't know! It would be of relevance to this accident, especially when we hear of the dramatic lack of SA in a PIA crew in AMS of which he/she speaks in later post.
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BOAC,
How on earth would I know what this captain was doing and whether he had his 'own' procedure -- or something that PIA pilot's have up their sleeve!?
There is nothing mysterious about circling to 12 after a letdown on 30. Capt. Choudhry must have done it himself many times and since we run our 747-200/300 on the domestic sector as well (Karachi-Lahore, Karachi-Islamabad, and return), he would have had all that extra 'practice' as it were.
May be that is part of the picture: complacency and over-confidence.
How on earth would I know what this captain was doing and whether he had his 'own' procedure -- or something that PIA pilot's have up their sleeve!?
There is nothing mysterious about circling to 12 after a letdown on 30. Capt. Choudhry must have done it himself many times and since we run our 747-200/300 on the domestic sector as well (Karachi-Lahore, Karachi-Islamabad, and return), he would have had all that extra 'practice' as it were.
May be that is part of the picture: complacency and over-confidence.
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BOAC,
Following on my recent post, let me do some snooping around. It has been so many years and all my colleagues are retired (at 60 -- the old rule) and have gone off to places like Jordan and Bahrain etc. where they are still flying I am told. I don't have their contact numbers/e-mail's but I could do a search.
Let me check with a couple of old PIA pilots still in Pakistan but their information could be dated. CAA probably won't answer me since they will guess I am trying to find out something pertinent to the accident.
Let me give it a shot.
Thanks for your patience!
Following on my recent post, let me do some snooping around. It has been so many years and all my colleagues are retired (at 60 -- the old rule) and have gone off to places like Jordan and Bahrain etc. where they are still flying I am told. I don't have their contact numbers/e-mail's but I could do a search.
Let me check with a couple of old PIA pilots still in Pakistan but their information could be dated. CAA probably won't answer me since they will guess I am trying to find out something pertinent to the accident.
Let me give it a shot.
Thanks for your patience!
p51guy, because people scream when you bank this much at 500' AGL?
I've never been a passenger in a plane when the passengers screamed, no matter the angle of bank. I have heard a few grumbles on a firm landing, I have heard applause (always heard them on Alitalia flights) when the pilot makes a nice landing, and I've heard grumbling and moaning during turbulence. My wife went white knuckled on a flight from Malta to Rome back in 97 when we went through some stormy weather, back of the plane, and you could feel the tail shift and shake. Even I was a bit ruffled by that segment of the flight. It was a rough flight at both ends, but ... no screaming.
My first flight as a passenger of an airplane was at age 10 months. (Back when air travel wasn't the annoyance it is now). I've been on over 200 trips as fare paying customer.
Never heard passengers scream, and certainly not when the pilot was simply banking to turn the plane.
Does this happen often, this screaming thing?
By my reckoning the crew flew for nearly 2 minutes on an extended 45 degree leg before coming to grief, having made no left turn. (Of course, it is entirely possible that an incapacitation or a tech problem could have taken the pilots' attention away from the navigation, but as this was a visual procedure, none of these excuses warrant the subsequent event)
Ok, dvv, what were the circumstances? Angle of bank greater than 15, or something actually going wrong with the plane?
I accept that my experience is not universal, nor even that large, given how many of the pilots and cabin crew here have thousands of trips under their belts.
But about this screaming passengers thing ...
was there any evidence, for example, of the folks who landed in the Hudson screaming as the final flare was undertaken?
Granted, Sully wasn't at a high angle of bank ... so maybe the stimulus to scream wasn't excited.
I accept that my experience is not universal, nor even that large, given how many of the pilots and cabin crew here have thousands of trips under their belts.
But about this screaming passengers thing ...
was there any evidence, for example, of the folks who landed in the Hudson screaming as the final flare was undertaken?
Granted, Sully wasn't at a high angle of bank ... so maybe the stimulus to scream wasn't excited.
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....second Cfit Accident To Plague Pakistan ?
Correct me if im wrong gents but i do believe this was the second CFIT to have occurred to this country. the first was an PIA Airbus A310 which crashed into kathmandu and now the Airblue A321 of last week crashing into the margala hills. Both occured as a result of bad weather, resulting in possible loss of situational awareness and deviation fron SOPs.
whichever way one looks at this one thing seems to stare us in the face and that is that this is a human error rearing its ugly head once again and not one involving aircraft technical failure as far as i am aware.
maybe (and there are many maybes) the people that train in PIA AND AIRBLUE are from same airforce backgrounds so much so that they really are the wrong stuff for airline material. From an CRM perpective the experience gradient is all too true and familiar in this case of an experienced captain (whose attitude is i can do everything cos i flew fighter jets all by myself) and the 300 hour f/o who dare even to to question the former. How can a F/O ever question a senior captain or put it more simply why did airblue OR GOVERNMENT CAA allow such an experince gradient to exist in the cockpit in the first place ? and should there be a cover pilot in the third seat in such situations?
and i hear some of you pruners now saying but they had GPWS OR EVEN EGPWS and the airplane shouting TERRAIN TERRAIN PULL UP PULL UP but alas not all airbus are created equal....
Perhaps Pakistan we need to review and learn from the past mishaps before we can even consider going forward.The eyes of the world are once again upon this troubled nation
I share the grief of the families who have lost there loved ones, and deepest condolences..ALLAH DE MARZI to all whome have lost there loved ones on the airblue flight and also from the recent floods in the region.
whichever way one looks at this one thing seems to stare us in the face and that is that this is a human error rearing its ugly head once again and not one involving aircraft technical failure as far as i am aware.
maybe (and there are many maybes) the people that train in PIA AND AIRBLUE are from same airforce backgrounds so much so that they really are the wrong stuff for airline material. From an CRM perpective the experience gradient is all too true and familiar in this case of an experienced captain (whose attitude is i can do everything cos i flew fighter jets all by myself) and the 300 hour f/o who dare even to to question the former. How can a F/O ever question a senior captain or put it more simply why did airblue OR GOVERNMENT CAA allow such an experince gradient to exist in the cockpit in the first place ? and should there be a cover pilot in the third seat in such situations?
and i hear some of you pruners now saying but they had GPWS OR EVEN EGPWS and the airplane shouting TERRAIN TERRAIN PULL UP PULL UP but alas not all airbus are created equal....
Perhaps Pakistan we need to review and learn from the past mishaps before we can even consider going forward.The eyes of the world are once again upon this troubled nation
I share the grief of the families who have lost there loved ones, and deepest condolences..ALLAH DE MARZI to all whome have lost there loved ones on the airblue flight and also from the recent floods in the region.
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PBL,
If the crash site is north of the Faisal Mosque (a prominent Islamabad land-mark) which is located at about the foothills of the Margalla, then this accident gets crazier by the day. I don't know how anyone can be so far off.
My late father's house faces the Margalla hills. That is why he bought it because he liked the view. If you are doing the circle-to-land on 12, you are about two/three miles when viewed from the backyard of the house flying parallel to it before turning base.
If the crash site is north of the Faisal Mosque (a prominent Islamabad land-mark) which is located at about the foothills of the Margalla, then this accident gets crazier by the day. I don't know how anyone can be so far off.
My late father's house faces the Margalla hills. That is why he bought it because he liked the view. If you are doing the circle-to-land on 12, you are about two/three miles when viewed from the backyard of the house flying parallel to it before turning base.
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BOAC
If he was flying a circling/semi visual approach (if the reports are correct, he did call Rwy AND terrain in sight), he might have been confident enough to deviate away from his ordinary circling pattern.
He should have a lot of bells and whistles going off in the cockpit, but again, if he had the mountains in sight?
I've flown myself into GPWS/EGPWS territory during visual letdowns, and as per SOP, continued since I had the terrain clearly in sight.
He should have a lot of bells and whistles going off in the cockpit, but again, if he had the mountains in sight?
I've flown myself into GPWS/EGPWS territory during visual letdowns, and as per SOP, continued since I had the terrain clearly in sight.
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gtaflyer,
How are we going to learn from mistakes and move forward as you say when we keep ALL air accident reports secret?
The CFIT at Khatmandu was not due to 'bad weather' although there were misty conditions but aircraft were landing.
He was a fatal one-step ahead of the step-down Sierra One approach and hit a ridge. The Nepalese authorities released some sort of report wherein it was stated, inter alia, that the reason ATC did not challenge the crew (because the crew transmitted height and distance) was because they are "under-confident".
CAA may have investigated the accident and then everything was hushed up.
So there were no lessons learnt, were they?
I fear the same will happen this time.
How are we going to learn from mistakes and move forward as you say when we keep ALL air accident reports secret?
The CFIT at Khatmandu was not due to 'bad weather' although there were misty conditions but aircraft were landing.
He was a fatal one-step ahead of the step-down Sierra One approach and hit a ridge. The Nepalese authorities released some sort of report wherein it was stated, inter alia, that the reason ATC did not challenge the crew (because the crew transmitted height and distance) was because they are "under-confident".
CAA may have investigated the accident and then everything was hushed up.
So there were no lessons learnt, were they?
I fear the same will happen this time.