Spirit Airlines Pilots walk out

[autoflight]

I cannot understand why we walk out. Work to rules is highly effective and can be continued indefinitely. Even finish up getting paid more due turbulence penetration speed for every bad forecast. Australian 1989 domestic pilots also couldn't accept these simple truths.

[AFOS]

I am sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone that goes on strike, certainly not under the current economical climate.
BA and Spirit have jobs, they should be grateful, very grateful in an industry ravaged by falling passengers, airlines going bust and of those airlines that are left, if they don't have a good summer season, then I can see either more people being made redundant and/or more airlines going to the wall.
As unpaletable as it may be any and all industries have had to make big and drastic changes in order to keep business alive. Run with it and then when times are more affluent, then I beleive it is more plausible to approach the boss and state a case and then consider strike action, but not now.
I have been out of work for very close to a year and cannot find anything.

If anyone at BA or Spirit want to swap positions, sit on a pitence of JSA or the salary they currently earn, then just let me know.
AFOS

[Bubi352]

Let me say this, as a Spirit pilot, this is exactly what management wants you to think! They want to replace us with pilots like you. They want to keep hiring pilots like you and lower the bar at the same time. And all this while the company makes millions of profit! Don't you have respect for yourself? To have no airplane movement, no scabs, no one flying for them is a statement that the pilots are fed up with this type of management. We will win and we will set a precedent for all others that we can regain some dignity in this industry. Let the Spirit pilots be feared among management ranks!

[Squawk7777]

I am sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone that goes on strike, certainly not under the current economical climate.

That all depends how and when you look at it. The prime example in the US is the infamous "Mesa sucks" slogan that you still hear across the airwaves. Do a bit of research.

Airline business in the US usually goes like this: After listening to how bad the financial situation is at airline XYZ, the pilot group votes on cutbacks and management then takes that money and uses it on their bonuses in form of cash, cars and other toys. If I am not mistaken there is a significant financial difference in bonuses and salaries paid to upper management between the US and Europe. The new(-ish) corporate attitude in the US really scares me because many CEOs/upper management are just out there to rape the company.

The railroad labor act is another big hurdle for pilots to be legally allowed to strike. This process is much lengthier than in Europe (I admit I do not know a bit about labo[u]r laws in the UK) and certain airlines wanting to strike cannot do so right away but have to wait for years. One prime example is a privately owned regional airline in STL. Management has been unscrupulous as expected but has also gotten away with things that would be deemed impossible at the legacy carriers, however; a legal strike is still months away.

A word people from Europe should become familiar with is the term scab. If one decides to cross a picket line, your name will be out there until you retire. There are already two Spirit pilots' names published on the net who decided to fly instead of joining their colleagues picketing.

Last but not least I think the major failure lies with ALPO. Regional airlines are not in their interest (except collecting your dues and sending you propaganda material once a month), and the upper union people bearing a frightening similarity with management (gimme your money) .

[captkirk3000]

I completely agree!
I fly for a regional carrier and we are under the same union (Teamsters). Due to my hectic schedule, I havent had the chance to walk the picket line with the Spirit pilots.
I give them 100% support during there strike and i wish them all the best.

[alouette3]

AFOS,
I have no dog in this fight ,but I must respond to your post.I am in a unionized company and I can tell you, at least in the US,what you suggest is a pipe dream.
Got to agree with Squawk.The past history is witness to the fact that many pilot unions, after giving serious concessions for hard times,never see the benefit of good times later.The management continues to increase their bonuses and the pilots are left in the cold with a contract that they agreed to in good faith to see the company through difficult days.Moreover, the Railway Labor Act,passed to maintain essential services to sustain the economy back in the early 20th century( hence 'Railroad') is an albatross on the shoulders of all those who work in aviation.It takes too long to negotiate, too long for mediation and too long for work action. And even then, the President can step in and impose binding arbitration if he feels that the country will be adversely affected.So all in all, it is grim to belong to a union under the current corporate climate in the US.Bad economy or not. Sometimes it is just flat wrong to stand on the sidelines and submit to the fear tactics by corporate or government.
Good Luck Spirit guys and gals.Hope you win through.
Alt3.

[Wino]

autoflight.

Work to rule doesn't work once you are released. At that point managment is also free to impose changes, and the first change they impose is that once someone follows a rule that management finds inconvienient, they terminate that employee...

So rather than go out as one strong group and actually try and accomplish something, managment gets to clean house without repercussion.

Furthermore, by "working to rule" and having safety campaigns, and what not you are making safety a bargaining item, which it is most certainly not. How do you turn on and off safety?

Strikes have a time and a place.

And you must remember WHO is being struck. Its not the passengers. They are free to fly other airlines, and the strikers wish them the best, and apologize for their troubles. IT is Spirt that the pilots are at war with, and the goal of a strike is to deny Spirit their revenue stream, untill they feel like sharing a little more of it when it is turned back on.

Therefore, the pax themselves are NOT struck work. HOWEVER, moving those passengers for SPIRIT airlines, be it by spirit plane, chartered aircraft, or CODESHARE, is struck work. Violate that at your own peril.

Cheers
Wino

[AFOS]

I appreciate and understand what you all say and am grateful for your polite and calm responses. I assure you my thread is/was not designed to stir things up. I am a very frustrated person looking for work. The labour laws in this country are, am currently unemployed and receive, not earn, receive £60 per week after years of earning £30K.
The people at the top are in charge. If you disagree with their policy either resign and join another company or if you want to earn what the Chairman is on and receive the same bonuses, company cars and perks, form you own airline.
The situation regarding the BA strike is it is pouring money in to the other airlines that BA have to sub-charter in to carry on the work.
If I read this original thread properly, did Spirit not spend its millions on upgrading aircraft from the old DC9 / MD80 to a fleet of modern Airbus?
Surely purchasing new, efficient, economical, earth friendly equipment preserving the company's longterm survivability is more important? I was made redundant because the boss at our airline would not invest in modern equipment, he expected us to continue to fly in Boeing 737-200's around Europe. No brainer really.
AFOS

[Wino]

The people at the top are in charge. If you disagree with their policy either resign

But the Pilots of SPIRIT have just done that democratically and as a group. If management don't like it, they can try and replace them, as a group. Good luck finding qualified pilots and getting them trained in time.

It is actions by pilots over the last 85 years or so, that have made this job something for you to aspire to, and enjoy when you reach it. They should be commended, not denigrated, because is this age of pattern bargaining, when the bar goes up or down somewhere, it has an effect on ALL pilots. Its that much harder for any other airline to claim their pilots are overpaid, if Spirit gets a raise, and also seeing the expense of a strike might make management bargain in better faith.

Cheers
Wino

[AFOS]

To get pilots trained in time ? How long will you be on strike for? There are plenty of DC9 / MD80 qualified pilots out their, whether they can get work permits for the USA or not I don't know but if you intend to go on strike for months then I can see the company going to the wall and then you are all out of work.
You then have the prospect of your next employer looking at your CV and seeing ex Spirit Airlines pilots who have the potencity to cause trouble and go on strike because he/she do not like something. I can imagine any prospective employer would steer away from such.
Similar to pilots, or work employees who take their employers to court for industrial matters. Win or loose, the employee is marked as a potential trouble maker.
In the case of BA a lot of Cabin Crew have now returned to work because they need the money, need a job, still have mortgages and bills to pay and wont be able to if they are out of work.
A little now is better than nothing at all.
AFOS

[Sqwak7700]

The people at the top are in charge. If you disagree with their policy either resign and join another company...

That shows a complete lack of understanding how airlines work. 99.9% of airlines out there have a seniority system. Without it, airlines would have to compensate pilots what they are worth, and they don't like that! Seniority is what allows them to hire guys at poverty wages and what locks them down and prevents them from jumping left and right.

... or if you want to earn what the Chairman is on and receive the same bonuses, company cars and perks, form you own airline.

Again, another huge misconception. You honestly think that the airline CEOs started their own airlines? With the exception of a few like Herb Keleher who founded SWA, most are professional managers that did squat for that airline. They are merely looking after their interest and taking from the low payed employees to benefit them and their buddies.

Remember when AA asked their employees for concessions a few years back? That douche-bag Don Carty was asking 22 USD / hour flight attendants to take a pay-cut "for the company". The day after they reluctantly agreed, he secured 50 million USD in bonuses for himself and the top managers at AA. That is the management you deal with today. And remember that a company gets the union that it deserves. If Spirit's pilot action seems harsh, there is probably good reason for it and they have my full support.

... did Spirit not spend its millions on upgrading aircraft from the old DC9 / MD80 to a fleet of modern Airbus? Surely purchasing new, efficient, economical, earth friendly equipment preserving the company's longterm survivability is more important? I was made redundant because the boss at our airline would not invest in modern equipment, he expected us to continue to fly in Boeing 737-200's around Europe. No brainer really.

Irrelevant. You don't know how Spirit might pay for this equipment and you don't know what deal they struck with Airbus. Besides, the employees are not responsible for subsidizing the company expenditures unless they are considered equal shareholders. You think management wants that? That would mean full disclosure and more equal re-distribution of the profits, so they would kiss those exuberant pay packages goodbye. Fat chance of that happening.

So please stop giving sympathy where it doesn't belong. These guys are fighting to improve your future career. Instead of shooting them down you should be thanking them for fighting to make Spirit a place where you might want to work some day.

You got a lot to learn, son.

[Sqwak7700]

You then have the prospect of your next employer looking at your CV and seeing ex Spirit Airlines pilots who have the potencity to cause trouble and go on strike because he/she do not like something. I can imagine any prospective employer would steer away from such.
Similar to pilots, or work employees who take their employers to court for industrial matters. Win or loose, the employee is marked as a potential trouble maker.

Let me guess, you must be another pay-for-training wonder. You are the reason why pilots with backbone and integrity have to fight so hard to achieve decent compensation. Your salary now seems spot on to me, you should stick with whatever it is you are currently doing because it is just about right for you.

And I believe Spirit hasn't flown DC9/MD80 for a long time. Remember your post above, you even mentioned their shiny new Airbi.

[Squawk7777]

The people at the top are in charge. If you disagree with their policy either resign

But the Pilots of SPIRIT have just done that democratically and as a group. If management don't like it, they can try and replace them, as a group. Good luck finding qualified pilots and getting them trained in time.

The final decision for strike action actually lies with the President of the United States. Every strike in the transportation sector has to be approved. Democrats are more likely to support unions than Republicans, although (in)famous President Clinton did not support APA (American Airlines Pilots' Union) to strike. Not sure if it had to do with APA as opposed to ALPO.

The "Lucky to have a job" argument doesn't fly anymore. Look up the nasty history on the regional level like Freedom Air or GoJet.

The important thing I learned when I worked as a corporate pilot is that a good company has no need for a union, however; in most cases both deserve each other.

[johns7022]

Having worked in corporate it's not a shock that the only real power you have as an employee is the ability to walk..

So good for you guys for putting managements feet to the fire...

And yes, if they can buy shiny new planes, they can bump some salaries...

[p51guy]

Spirit ALPA pilots will win this war. Spirit management has used the RLA to keep pilots pay in the basement compared to other low cost carriers for years. They have delayed bargaining with these pilots to the point they are all fed up with the company.

They can't replace them because a totally qualified Airbus pilot would require a month to complete a security check before starting training. They can't afford to wait that long unless somebody bankrolls them. They had a 98% strike vote. ALPA was amazed. You can't treat your pilots like that for years and not get their wrath when their chance comes to act. The sooner Spirit management understands this the sooner the mega losses per day every day will stop.

I'm behind them all the way.

[Hotel Charlie]

7700 You are spot on dude!!

Big thanks and good luck to the Spirit guy's

[p51guy]

Obama is not going to touch this strike like Clinton did with us. American is a big player in air transportation in the US. Spirit isn't. Stopping this strike with such a small airline would lose his union support for reelection.
What can a union do if they can't strike?

ALPA will succeed with this strike and all of the other airline managements are worried. They might throw some money at Spirit to fend off the thousands of angry pilots at all the other airlines being stonewalled by the Railway Labor Act.

[AFOS]

Sqwak 7700 for your benefit, I have been involved with aviation all my life. Admittedly not in the USA.
I am probably right in thinking prior to you joining Spirit you attended an interview, psychometric testing and probably a simulator test before being offered a job and signing the all important contract.
If you did sign on the dotted line you agreed certain conditions. Now you don't like those conditions and are expecting to hold the company to ransom, jeopardise yours and other employees, cabin crew, flight ops, other ground staff jobs because you don't like the rules made up by your superiors.
If you are a Captain then you would expect both your crew and passengers to comply with your wishes, instructions etc, no more or less than the Chairman of Spirit who you are answerable too.
If you now do not like his rules and the economic changes he/she sees fit to make to safe guard his/her airline and your job, then why don't you do the honourable thing and resign and find a job that best suits your requirements.
I am not a pay for training wonder, nor am I your son and thank you for your comment that I should stick to what I am doing as you think it is about right. I am only giving my thoughts and points like other forum users are.
Here in England over centuries the unions have tried to impose their will on Government, bosses and employers, now many of those companies don't exist and the infamous threats of "we will never give in", "we are all united", "we shall fight to the bitter end" etc, never worked and never will.
A lot of the BA cabin crew are seeing reality now and slowly going back to work.
I wish you well who ever you end up flying with.
AFOS

[dannyalliga]

AFOS,

If you now do not like his rules and the economic changes he/she sees fit to make to safe guard his/her airline and your job, then why don't you do the honourable thing and resign and find a job that best suits your requirements.

If you did sign on the dotted line you agreed certain conditions. Now you don't like those conditions and are expecting to hold the company to ransom, jeopardise yours and other employees, cabin crew, flight ops, other ground staff jobs because you don't like the rules made up by your superiors.

I was made redundant because the boss at our airline would not invest in modern equipment, he expected us to continue to fly in Boeing 737-200's around Europe. No brainer really.

The above statements of yours don't really make much sense.
Why did you sign that dotted line if you knew your boss was going to run the show the to your disliking?
Why didn't you resign and looked for a job that better suited you if you were in obvious disagreement with your boss about the use of the B737-200?
Why did you wait until they made you redundant?
What did you and your former colleagues do in order to let your boss know he was probably taking the wrong decisions?


I see why things in England are going down the drain now......

[Ka D'argo]

It's nice to see on the international news channels here at the layover that the general consensus is for the Spirit pilots. We are all brother aviators in this big world and standing up for our profession is the right thing to do. Cheers!