Air India Express B738 crash

[Smilin_Ed]

Hand Flying Promotes Situational Awareness

The AP is there for a reason to take the workload off the pilot so he can concentrate on things like situational awareness etc.

There is nothing like hand flying to promote situational awareness. It's letting "George" fly it that can actually cause loss of awareness.

[de facto]

Smilin ed,
are you a jet pilot?what type?
Would you be so kind and enlighten us on how hand flying increases your situation awareness?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Considering we hand flew the DC3's and DC6's and such aircraft in all kinds of weather landing at unprepared air strips in the Arctic for years with excellent results have newer technology airplanes been designed to be more difficult to hand fly?

If so then the opinion of some in aviation that today's generation of pilots are dumbed down airmanship wise could be accurate.

[pmat]

Here we go again! Was Pele greater than Maradona? Is LeBrone better than Jordan? DC3s and 6s flew in a different time. They were slower, flew lower, etc. True same environment, there was a human being in the cockpit and true they would have had less fatalities than they did if they had today's modern technology. Compare hand flying to the guy in the field who's looking for a team mate the pass the ball and the spectator watching the game to the pilot who is monitoring the autopilot. As a spectator you can almost always see who's open for a pass but as a player, with the 'opponents' closing in on you .....

[B-HKD]

Somebody mentioned a possible insufficient autobrake setting on landing.

Many guys seem unaware of this(RTFM), but you can up select and down select any autobrake setting on (737/47/57/67/77) during landing . So if you land with 2 and it isn't enough, just change it to 3, 4 or MAX.

Cathay jocks did it all the time at Kai Tak and it worked like a charm.

[de facto]

Chuck,
i also flew the usual turboprop( metroliner,be1900)single pilot, no autopilot thingy in what you guys call the tornado halley...
I did my share for about 4 years..
Flying a jet is a different ball game.
Using the autopilot does increase your situation awareness by allowing you to use your few brain cells for other activities such as making sure your lnav routing wont take you into a mountain...
Obviously i find a 737 quite enjoyable to hand fly from fl 280 with all automatics off and fds off but only when im not tired and weather/ traffic is good.
Making a point handflying in bad weather or saying that hand flying increases you situational awareness is nonsense.
Would flying without an F/o also increase your situation awareness??

BHKD,

yes on 737 you can change the autobrake setting before reaching 60 kts.
I would not recommend to reselect a lower setting though and espevially not switching it off as it has lead to unwanted rto braking during landing.i am waiting for boeing guys to let me know if they fixed this problem by now..

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Here we go again! Was Pele greater than Maradona? Is LeBrone better than Jordan? DC3s and 6s flew in a different time.

I apologize for having been born before technology took over thinking and pilot flying skills pmat.

However I did get a bit of insight into the Nintendo cockpit before I retired a few years ago and my comments were made based on having flown during both eras.

Fifty seven years of flying accident free should give me some liberty in commenting?

[de facto]

Chuck,

im sorry to hear that in your 53 years of accident free , you believe as you wrote that today's pilots have no airmanship,no skills and no brain(no thinking as you mentioned).
Unfortunately the odds of a b737 crash are higher than of a dc6...and those single pilot cargo guys crashing unfortunately dont make CNN news..

Keep some faith

[jmmilner]

The current thread creep towards an automatics vs. hand-fly pissing contest seems to be heading towards the false black/white dichotomy that dominates political "discussions". I firmly believe that both the automatics and hand-flying are critical to modern flight operations. The real issue is how and when to maintain the hand-flying skills that can be instantly required when the automatics leave the building. Given that the automatics seem to have no restrictions on when they may declare "your aircraft", I expect any commercial pilot to be able to instantly assume control with full situational awareness at any point in the flight. If pilots don't hand-fly during some normal operations, how do you get the practice to keep the reflexes and muscle memory sharp? Is a periodic sim check really sufficient? Statistics indicate that most fatal accidents happen during takeoff and landing. Therefore to my mind these critical phases are precisely where I'd most expect hand-flying skills to be required and therefore practiced. Is there any data suggesting that hand-flying for practice by line crews (I'm not talking TK 1951) is more dangerous that maximal use of automatics offset against accidents where revision to hand-flying was a contributing factor? Does any carrier have a MEL so restrictive that their pilots will never be expected to fly without full automatics available at departure?

I'm just a poor (ex-)SLF who reads this forum to understand what goes on in the pointed end of what was my favorite form of transport before the economic crashes of 2000/2001 and 2008 put me out to pasture. My contribution here is intended to provoke consideration of what I believe is in the best interests of current and future SLF.

[Smilin_Ed]

Situational Awareness

are you a jet pilot?what type?
Would you be so kind and enlighten us on how hand flying increases your situation awareness?

As my public profile states, I'm a retired military pilot. I flew over 17 types of military aircraft up to and including P-3s. Mostly I flew tactical jets. I am also a graduate of the Navy's Test Pilot School. (Class 39 if you want to check.)

As far as I am concerned, the autopilot is for relieving the tedium of flying straight and level for thousands of miles. Letting George do most of the flying, particularly maneuvering while IMC, degrades piloting skills. Nothing concentrates the mind on what you are doing like actually flying the airplane.

[crippen]

As a humble SLF still flying about 25000 mile a year,I KNOW the planes I fly on are not flown by supposition,conjecture,and idle gossip,like some of these posts.


Of this IAM REALLY GLAD.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chuck,

im sorry to hear that in your 53 years of accident free , you believe as you wrote that today's pilots have no airmanship,no skills and no brain(no thinking as you mentioned).

Let me explain it in a more simple context.

All airplanes in use today still have elevators, ailerons, rudders and throttles that are assessable to both pilots to control pitch, roll , yaw and velocity which when done properly will make the airplane go where you want it to under the control of the pilot / 's.

If and when pilots come to rely on the automatics to fly the airplanes why are pilots needed?

Maybe my use of words were incorrect but if airplane handling skills are being deferred to auto pilots how can today's pilots remain sharp hand flying skills wise?

Maybe what is needed is smarter airplanes that can do things like decide " WHEN " to go around without any input from the pilots?

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by protectthehornet

test your self white knight (and others)...Next landing see if you can put her down right on the spot you have preselected. or certainly within 200 feet of that spot.

And dear pilots, if you can't keep situational awareness on a dark stormy night while answering the radio, selecting altitudes and headings...oh MY!

Passed the test - thanks for the offer though

Did I mention 'situational awareness'? No - I think I was talking about managing the flight the way the airlines like us too, and of course the public who pay the salaries...

Try not to twist my words old boy..

Funny that it's always the ones who can't fly who cast that accusation at others PTH

[drive73]

You can drive a car with your feet, but that doesn't make it the smart thing to do. There is a time and place for hand flying and one for letting the ap take the workload down. Safety should be the number one thing to think about. They make ap for a reason, it's not because it's more dangerous. I still cringe doing an autoland because I spent so many years hand flying. This is my issue and I have to get over not trusting the automation.
I can assure you the accident rate is much lower now, than when all of us were hand flying every approach. When I fly passengers around I always think about how I would fly with my family on board. I wish all the superpilots who don't use automation would think about that instead of proving what super sticks they are. Go show them in a cub where the only person you kill or injure is yourself if you make a mistake, because after all, as humans we do make mistakes and we have just been lucky enouph to not make it when the stars lined up the wrong way. Don't think this kind of accident can't happen to all of us.

[Jumbo744]

drive73

very well said

[Flaperon777]

Any news on the redovery of the Cvr and/or the Dfdr. Heard from some of my colleagues that the Cvr was found intact and in good condition. Should'nt be too difficult to locate since its only brush and trees where the plane impacted.Rather than inaccessible ocean depths or mountain tops...
So the truth is out there now...

[protectthehornet]

smilin ed...I agree with your use of the autopilot...

white knight.

imagine having to take an escalator to your office and never taking the stairs...and one day you have to actually walk up the stairs...you won't be ''ready''.

so too with flying...if you don't practice, how can you stay good or get good?

certainly if your airline lets you take the plane up, loaded with sandbags, and lets you practice...then use all the autopilot you want to... I don't know too many airlines that do this.

bringing up what the passengers pay you for, or what your airline wants you to do...fine...show me in writing where it says: my airline wants me to lose my hand flying skills.

And does your airline allow you to dispatch with all autopilots inop? I've gone all day with no autopilot, or autothrottles (yes in jets...DC9/737) and I kept my situational awareness and ate a calzone all at the same time.

smilin ed...I'd like to fly with you

white knight...you would beat me a pacman...but I wouldn't fly with you.

[wisperingwillows]

Accidents and Hysteria

Hi! All,

Been reading through all the posts here and found some measured, some bodering on hysteria and a lot completely unrelated to the issue at hand. I would like to add a few sane comments to all those flying about here.

Just to give you a background to my comments

1. I am a Line Captain; one of those low time ones to be precise.

2. Have flow with lots of expats and Indians as p2 and p1

3. Have operated to and landed Mangalore several times (will have to check my log for an excat figure but atleast 10 or more; a few times in rain) ...

Issue 1 Mangalore Airport

Comment 1. The Mangalore airport usually gives you a DME arc approach which is not particularly challenging but you can end up high if you're not on the ball (situational awareness) or the FMGS is not properly programmed (yes I know that's obvious)

Comment 2. The runway length is sufficient; though not comfortable given the drop at the end of the runway. Hence, one always tends to ensure a touch down at or before the 1000 ft aiming point marker.

Comment 3. There is nothing about Mangalore that requires only Captains to be allowed to land there. Other than Air India; I am not aware of any other airline with this rule.


Issue 2 Cause of crash

Comment 1. Yes I would like to wait for the report and not indulge in wild speculation; but I know that the report will take many many months / years. In the mean time I would like to learn whatever I can for my own improvement.

Comment 2. To be hot and high or float down the runway in Mangalore is a terrible idea. Every crew member operating out of Mangalore knows that or is told by his compatriots ....... Hence, I cannot comprehend that this particular crew would attempt to land half way down the runway....

Comment 3. Lastly, I do not know what the AI Express policy towards go arounds is... their policy towards hard landings has been stated earlier and I believe it is a short sighted and wrong policy.


Comment 4. The maintance in Air India (won't hazard a guess about AI Express) is terrible.... In my experience the engineers are brilliant at paper work but terrible at the actually fixing any problems.... They don't follow the most basic of procedures laid down in the MEL or AMM or TSM. And they often ask pilots to defer defect entries into the tech log.

Based on the above, I would like to hazard the following:

1. It is probable the approach was unstable (crew could have become high without realising)

2. It is possible they might have floated (given the AI Express policy on hard landings)...

3. It is probable that a system failure degraded the braking capability / controlability of the aircraft on touchdown...

4. A combination of the 3 above coupled with the fact that Mangalore has a steep drop at the end of the runway resulted in the tragedy.

I would welcome any comments to substantiate or debunk the above...


Issue 3. Expat Pilots

Fact 1. They are in India because there was a severe shortage of pilots in India and the growth of the industry was suffering.

Fact 2. They get paid more than Indians with equivalent experience. This leads to resentment.

Fact 3. Expats come to India because they dont have jobs that pay them anything similar in their home countries.

Fact 4. If expat pilots had to go though a Class I Indian Medical; atleast 60 % would be grounded. This also leads to resentment.

Fact 5. The following incidents in India had expat Captains (this is not a complete or precise list; just a guessimate please feel free to add or substract)

1. Air Deccan ATR bounced / hard landing at old bangalore airport. Aircraft beyond economical repair. (African Capt)

2. Jet Airways ATR at Indore. Runway overrun. Multiple injuries and Aircraft beyond economical repair.(Not sure of nationality but not Indian)

3. Jetlite 737 runway overrun in Mumbai. Runway 27 closed for 2 days (dont remember excatly)(South American)

4. Kingfisher ATR incident at Mumbai in 2009. (Not sure of nationality but not Indian)


Comment 1. The free movement of goods and labour is benifical to all concerned. (If Indians want to work in the Gulf and the US; then others can want to work in India). I support it; So yes I support expat pilots.

Comment 2. For all those expats (& I've seen a few on pprune) who keep cribbing about how terrible India is in general and how unsafe it etc etc... Please leave.. Nobody is forcing you to fly in India; you are here 'cause the money is good.

Comment 3. As a P2 I flew with expats from around the world and I believe I am a better pilot today because of it. I have learnt enormously from them and their experience. The majority of them have huge amounts of experience and they gave me the benifit of it.

I can see that difference when I compare notes with my collegues for different airlines.

Comment 4. However, there are also a set of Expats that fly in a manner beyond comprehension. Among them are

(a) no go around captains; who boast they have never gone around.

(b) do 360 turns on finals below 1500 ft. (specificly banned in India after the Patna crash)

(c) Never flare. (this is not made up) Expat captain with more than 15000 hrs; beat all records for hard landings.

That being said, I have seen plenty of Indian captains do the same.

What I am trying to say is that it is capability not nationality that is important. Certain Indian pilots do resent the expats and certain expats make it a pet hobby to crib about India.

Let's just get over it and get on with our jobs.

[cosmo kramer]

The mediocre, and above pilot, will benefit from regular raw data flying. They will learn (or refresh) how the aircraft should behave from feeling and seeing what's going on while manipulating the controls themselves. The feel-, see- co-ordination is invaluable in identifying when the autopilot does something is not supposed to do (such as raise the pitch to 10 degs during approach, e.g. Turkish amsterdam).

Hence regular raw data flying will increase the situational awareness when really needed - like when you flying with autopilot ON, navigating around CBs, being kept too high in a crappy ATC environment, with no radio discipline, and controllers that hardly speak english, changing frequencies every 5 nm. Monitoring the aircraft is much easier, when you can predict what the autopilot should do in the next 10, 20 or 30 seconds and intervene if it's not doing as expected.

However, it's true that there are so many below mediocre (that would be crappy i guess) pilots out there that it's probably true that it's most likely better with the policy to leave it all to the autopilot, preferably the landing as well. Welcome to the wonder full world of airline flying, sit back relax and enjoy your flight (while the automatics will make a CFIT because your pilots are unable to fly the aircraft).

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

A wee hello to 'button pusher' pilots.

Why do you have to learn to fly at all?

Why does your certifying authority insist on single pilot IR with YOU doing the flying, navigating and radio?

Why did your instructor teach you all that good stuff about flying?
remember? steep turns, looking out the window at the horizon, stalling, pfls, flapless landings etc etc?

The AP is great for flying while you read the paper or whatever but never let it get better than you.

Keep sharp and stay safe.

Never RELY on the AP.