Air India Express B738 crash
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maybe pilots in general are not as good as they once were. that they have become so dependent upon automation that the idea of landing within 200 feet of your touchdown spot has gone out the window.
there are plenty of short runway, or table top airports that I have operated into and I never took such things for granted. Flying is serious business and safety margins must be increased by all methods including pilot excellence.
I think we should be comparing and contrasting the recent american overshoot in the carribean islands (forgot where), southwest overshoot at chicago midway, and others.
there are plenty of short runway, or table top airports that I have operated into and I never took such things for granted. Flying is serious business and safety margins must be increased by all methods including pilot excellence.
I think we should be comparing and contrasting the recent american overshoot in the carribean islands (forgot where), southwest overshoot at chicago midway, and others.
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Maybe it could have been trying to abort the landing after the reversers have been deployed. It takes an awfully long time for the reversers to cycle back for the engines to regain forward thrust and before you know it, you are outta runway.
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dont know about express but in atleast one other indian carrier from the gulf there is this procedure wherein cabin baggage of the passengers is taken from them before entering the aircraft and put in the cargo hold below. reason being they also carry a duty free bag and there is no space left in the overhead bins. now for load and trim purposes, this cabin bag is not weighed but a general rule of 7 kgs per passenger is applied. however the duty free bag itself weighs around 5-7 kg plus the oiginal cabin baggage whose weight is calculated as 7 kg but most of the times could exceed that too...so for a 100 odd passengers you end up with 700kg of extra weight not mentioned anywhere on the trim and all carriers also carry out tankering so even if you are landing at mlw , you most certainly end up 1t-2t over that.
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For the life of me, I cannot understand why the runways in India are not grooved... even the newly constructed or resurfaced runways
!
At best, the ATC and aviation system in India can be compared to as organized chaos.
Anyone been to the Dungeons of the DGCA in Delhi lately? Start there and you'll have a better understanding as to why the aviation system in India is the way it is
.
! At best, the ATC and aviation system in India can be compared to as organized chaos.
Anyone been to the Dungeons of the DGCA in Delhi lately? Start there and you'll have a better understanding as to why the aviation system in India is the way it is
.
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I agree with woody......can never overemphasise that once the reversers are deployed, the pilot is really committed to stop. From preliminary reports, this seem to be the likely case.
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Was this waiting to happen ?
maybe pilots in general are not as good as they once were. that they have become so dependent upon automation that the idea of landing within 200 feet of your touchdown spot has gone out the window.
If you practice every landing as though the runway is limiting, then there should be little problem in landing when it is. But you have to establish in your mind that if the wheels are not on the ground by a certain point then you're going to execute a go around.
Perhaps we should also bear in mind that landing distance is a function of the square of the speed (double the touchdown speed and you quadruple the landing distance - in terms of kinetic energy - 0.5mv(squared)). This means that a few extra knots is going to make a big difference to the landing distance.
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Forget the formulas
If you operate any aircraft you are responsible to know your performance!
That's why there is a QRH next to the Pilots and a FCTM. All is covered.
So whether you land with a TWC, one or both rev. inop, anti-skid inop, etc., its your job as CM1/CM2, PIC, PICUS, or FO to know the basics...... will the ac stop or not.
So no excuse to land anywhere (and unless a surprise mechanical failure of spoilers, brakes, etc. upon touchdown... or an environmental factor (damp, wet, contaminated)- Downburts, etc.) and go off the end or side of the runway (only excuse a miro-burst from the side or gear collapse).
You should always be able to stay on a 45m wide runway and within the LDA!
If not, the choice is obvious.
If you cannot manage this, then WTF are you doing in a cockpit.
So a tip. Next time you land. Take the QRH or whatever, look at your performance and ask your self - where will I stop if I land at the 3,000 ft mark (end of the Touchdown Zone) with above mentioned failures.
I bet you it may be the first time?
That's why there is a QRH next to the Pilots and a FCTM. All is covered.
So whether you land with a TWC, one or both rev. inop, anti-skid inop, etc., its your job as CM1/CM2, PIC, PICUS, or FO to know the basics...... will the ac stop or not.
So no excuse to land anywhere (and unless a surprise mechanical failure of spoilers, brakes, etc. upon touchdown... or an environmental factor (damp, wet, contaminated)- Downburts, etc.) and go off the end or side of the runway (only excuse a miro-burst from the side or gear collapse).
You should always be able to stay on a 45m wide runway and within the LDA!
If not, the choice is obvious.
If you cannot manage this, then WTF are you doing in a cockpit.
So a tip. Next time you land. Take the QRH or whatever, look at your performance and ask your self - where will I stop if I land at the 3,000 ft mark (end of the Touchdown Zone) with above mentioned failures.
I bet you it may be the first time?
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Fireblybob
while the actual touchdown may be manual, I would like you to think about this.
at what point do YOU turn the autopilot off? five hundred above the runway? 1000'?
I made it a point to hand fly from cruise/tod/ to touchdown.
If you are depending upon the automation to trim up every time you change configuration on approach...if you aren't using the approach phase to get the feel of slow flying the plane...then you aren't gaining the skills for that tough landing.
even on a non coupled approach, I've seen people fly on autopilot to the threshold...not gaining any experience in the feel of the plane at that speed.
all the best,
at what point do YOU turn the autopilot off? five hundred above the runway? 1000'?
I made it a point to hand fly from cruise/tod/ to touchdown.
If you are depending upon the automation to trim up every time you change configuration on approach...if you aren't using the approach phase to get the feel of slow flying the plane...then you aren't gaining the skills for that tough landing.
even on a non coupled approach, I've seen people fly on autopilot to the threshold...not gaining any experience in the feel of the plane at that speed.
all the best,
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Air India Express B738 crash!
Did airline's bar on hard landings force a pilot 'error'?
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
MUMBAI: Air crash investigators worldwide share a belief__that the initial reports on the probable cause of an aircrash usually turn out to be untrue.
The Air India Express top brass would do well to hope that this bit of industry wisdom holds true in the Mangalore aircrash case too since initial reports from aviation circles point at pilot error arising out of the management's highly controversial policies.
According to sources, the AI Express Boeing 737-800 aircraft touched down deep on runway 24 of Mangalore airport, much beyond the stipulated touchdown zone. Why would a senior commander miss the touchdown zone and hit the runway? Here's where the airline management's involvement comes in. There is a diktat for Air India Express pilots which bars hard landings. A circular issued by the airline about a year ago says that landings should not exceed 1.65G.
What is a 1.65G landing? When the undercarriage of a plane touches down on the runway, the sink rate goes from say 200 feet per minute to zero feet per minute in a few seconds. So for a higher sink rate, the impact on touchdown is greater and vice versa. A hard landing typically occurs when the sink rate is high and the aircraft touches down on the runway with a thud instead of doing a smooth transition onto ground.
The hard or smooth quotient of a landing is expressed in a term called "touchdown G". A 1G landing means the force which acted on aircraft tyres at the instant of touchdown is equivalent to the weight of the aircraft (1 x aircraft weight). A 2G landing would mean the force is two times the weight of the aircraft. Higher the value of G, harder the landing. The AI Express circular limits landings to 1.65G, though according to the aircraft manufacturer Boeing's specifications the aircraft can safely handle up to 2.5G landings.
"Every time a landing exceeds 1.65G, the pilot gets hauled up by the air safety department. Two hard landings and the pilot is sent for a training session. Passengers also complain about hard landings and so the airline is particular about smooth landings which are achieved with lower touchdown G values," said a source. Now, one of the ways to achieve a smooth touchdown is to come over the runway at a higher speed and float for some distance before letting the landing gear touch down on the runway. This reduces the G force on impact. "Pilots often land a few feet ahead of the touchdown zone when they float over the runway to make a smooth landing," said a source. "The AI Express commander too seems to have employed these tactics. His aircraft missed the touchdown point," the source added. What the commander executed was a late, smooth touchdown at high speed. "‘It is indeed pilot error, but it is an error that was forced by the management policy for smooth landings. A hard landing may be an uncomfortable landing, but sometimes it is a safer landing than a smooth landing," the source said.
Capt Z Glusica was popular among his first officers as he allowed them to do landings under his supervision. "Any commander with the kind of experience that Capt Glusica had can safely allow a first officer to land. But the AI Express air safety department is set against it. If a first officer never learns to land under the supervision of an experienced commander, how will he handle a situation if for instance the commander gets incapacitated?" asked the source. "Even if we assume that it was the first officer who touched down late then all that the commander had to do was do a go-around (i.e., take off again and come around for a second attempt at landing) and the aircraft would have landed safely," the official said.
A B737 aircraft can safely do a go-around after touchdown. But it cannot do a safe go-around if the decision to do a go-around is taken late or if it is taken after the reverse thrusters have been deployed (thrust in the opposite direction so as decelerate the aircraft). A go-around after thrust reversal selection is prohibited. "The airline policy is such that pilots try to avoid go-arounds as they have to explain it to the air safety department. A go-around infact is a highly recommended safety procedure when the touchdown is deep. But due to the airline diktat, the commander must have had a few microseconds of indecision after the aircraft touched down. So he seems to have either opted for the go-around late or he did it after deploying reverse thrusters. Since the go-around attempt failed, this is a plausible explanation," said the source.
There are unconfirmed reports that the plane's nose wheel burst after touchdown. It is difficult to bring an aircraft to a halt near the end of a runway as this portion bears aircraft skid marks and rubber desposits which affects braking action. When the plane attempted to lift off again the aircraft's wing hit the localiser (a T-shaped frangible antenna positioned perpendicular to the runway central line and located about 150 feet from the end of the runway) and then plunged into the valley. "Since the wreckage was well off the runway one can say that there seemed to have been an attempt to do a go around. Only investigations will reveal why did the attempt go wrong," says the source.
The pilots also brought in the fatigue angle to explain the wrong decisions taken by the pilot. "It does not matter how many days rest he got prior to these flights that he operated. He took off from Calicut on Friday night for Dubai and then came to Mangalore. The entire operation was done at night, during circadian low. His alertness level at the end of that 9-10 hour night duty surely would not have been very high," the pilot added. For the last three years, pilots of Air India, Indian Airlines and Jet Airways have been pushing for better pilot rest rules in India. Currently, the rest rules followed are the ones formulated in 1992.
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
MUMBAI: Air crash investigators worldwide share a belief__that the initial reports on the probable cause of an aircrash usually turn out to be untrue.
The Air India Express top brass would do well to hope that this bit of industry wisdom holds true in the Mangalore aircrash case too since initial reports from aviation circles point at pilot error arising out of the management's highly controversial policies.
According to sources, the AI Express Boeing 737-800 aircraft touched down deep on runway 24 of Mangalore airport, much beyond the stipulated touchdown zone. Why would a senior commander miss the touchdown zone and hit the runway? Here's where the airline management's involvement comes in. There is a diktat for Air India Express pilots which bars hard landings. A circular issued by the airline about a year ago says that landings should not exceed 1.65G.
What is a 1.65G landing? When the undercarriage of a plane touches down on the runway, the sink rate goes from say 200 feet per minute to zero feet per minute in a few seconds. So for a higher sink rate, the impact on touchdown is greater and vice versa. A hard landing typically occurs when the sink rate is high and the aircraft touches down on the runway with a thud instead of doing a smooth transition onto ground.
The hard or smooth quotient of a landing is expressed in a term called "touchdown G". A 1G landing means the force which acted on aircraft tyres at the instant of touchdown is equivalent to the weight of the aircraft (1 x aircraft weight). A 2G landing would mean the force is two times the weight of the aircraft. Higher the value of G, harder the landing. The AI Express circular limits landings to 1.65G, though according to the aircraft manufacturer Boeing's specifications the aircraft can safely handle up to 2.5G landings.
"Every time a landing exceeds 1.65G, the pilot gets hauled up by the air safety department. Two hard landings and the pilot is sent for a training session. Passengers also complain about hard landings and so the airline is particular about smooth landings which are achieved with lower touchdown G values," said a source. Now, one of the ways to achieve a smooth touchdown is to come over the runway at a higher speed and float for some distance before letting the landing gear touch down on the runway. This reduces the G force on impact. "Pilots often land a few feet ahead of the touchdown zone when they float over the runway to make a smooth landing," said a source. "The AI Express commander too seems to have employed these tactics. His aircraft missed the touchdown point," the source added. What the commander executed was a late, smooth touchdown at high speed. "‘It is indeed pilot error, but it is an error that was forced by the management policy for smooth landings. A hard landing may be an uncomfortable landing, but sometimes it is a safer landing than a smooth landing," the source said.
Capt Z Glusica was popular among his first officers as he allowed them to do landings under his supervision. "Any commander with the kind of experience that Capt Glusica had can safely allow a first officer to land. But the AI Express air safety department is set against it. If a first officer never learns to land under the supervision of an experienced commander, how will he handle a situation if for instance the commander gets incapacitated?" asked the source. "Even if we assume that it was the first officer who touched down late then all that the commander had to do was do a go-around (i.e., take off again and come around for a second attempt at landing) and the aircraft would have landed safely," the official said.
A B737 aircraft can safely do a go-around after touchdown. But it cannot do a safe go-around if the decision to do a go-around is taken late or if it is taken after the reverse thrusters have been deployed (thrust in the opposite direction so as decelerate the aircraft). A go-around after thrust reversal selection is prohibited. "The airline policy is such that pilots try to avoid go-arounds as they have to explain it to the air safety department. A go-around infact is a highly recommended safety procedure when the touchdown is deep. But due to the airline diktat, the commander must have had a few microseconds of indecision after the aircraft touched down. So he seems to have either opted for the go-around late or he did it after deploying reverse thrusters. Since the go-around attempt failed, this is a plausible explanation," said the source.
There are unconfirmed reports that the plane's nose wheel burst after touchdown. It is difficult to bring an aircraft to a halt near the end of a runway as this portion bears aircraft skid marks and rubber desposits which affects braking action. When the plane attempted to lift off again the aircraft's wing hit the localiser (a T-shaped frangible antenna positioned perpendicular to the runway central line and located about 150 feet from the end of the runway) and then plunged into the valley. "Since the wreckage was well off the runway one can say that there seemed to have been an attempt to do a go around. Only investigations will reveal why did the attempt go wrong," says the source.
The pilots also brought in the fatigue angle to explain the wrong decisions taken by the pilot. "It does not matter how many days rest he got prior to these flights that he operated. He took off from Calicut on Friday night for Dubai and then came to Mangalore. The entire operation was done at night, during circadian low. His alertness level at the end of that 9-10 hour night duty surely would not have been very high," the pilot added. For the last three years, pilots of Air India, Indian Airlines and Jet Airways have been pushing for better pilot rest rules in India. Currently, the rest rules followed are the ones formulated in 1992.
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Condolences
It was not the kind of news that I wanted to wake up to this morning. My heart goes out to all involved, both pilots, pax and family members. I also had a fear after having learnt of the so called "expat pilot" that this whole incident would be hijacked, for lack of a better word, by certain parties who are pushing their own agenda. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that kicking the expats out would prevent future accidents from happening. As far as accents go, everybody's got one, if you work in the aviation industry its a fact of life we do not live in bubbles anymore. There are so many different languages (18 official with about 600 dialects) in India itself that there are a plethora of accents floating about. We can't ban everyone now can we? Before we start blaming our fellow aviators and talk about kicking off "expats" maybe we should be looking at the crew rest procedures and turn around times, equipment and maintenance etc. Anything other than that would be tantamount to looking at blood types and horoscopes to determine ones aptitude to fly. And yes if it does matter, I am Indian as well.
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Warning Bells
I witnessed the first 2 years of the airline boom in India from up close.
Just to mention an add from a 2005 Delhi daily:
"Now anybody can fly for 500 Rupees (less than 10 EUR at that time)."
Another header from the same daily a couple of years latter:
"24 year old captain with a 19 year old F/O"
Unfortunately you get what you pay for.
Many airlines from all major alliances only reveal the operator of certain flights at a stage when if not impossible, it is at least a hassle to change your route or booking.
2009 was the first year in the 21st century when human error became again the top factor in commercial aviation accidents/incidents.
Unfortunately the SLF will have to pay the "BLOOD TAX" more often if they do not act in a timely and decisive manner to stop the likes of O'Leary, Malya and Fernandez and a million uneducated, corrupt and inefficient people from Developing and Developed countries from further diminishing the importance of the job of professional pilot.
Just to mention an add from a 2005 Delhi daily:
"Now anybody can fly for 500 Rupees (less than 10 EUR at that time)."
Another header from the same daily a couple of years latter:
"24 year old captain with a 19 year old F/O"
Unfortunately you get what you pay for.
Many airlines from all major alliances only reveal the operator of certain flights at a stage when if not impossible, it is at least a hassle to change your route or booking.
2009 was the first year in the 21st century when human error became again the top factor in commercial aviation accidents/incidents.
Unfortunately the SLF will have to pay the "BLOOD TAX" more often if they do not act in a timely and decisive manner to stop the likes of O'Leary, Malya and Fernandez and a million uneducated, corrupt and inefficient people from Developing and Developed countries from further diminishing the importance of the job of professional pilot.
Last edited by swish266; 23rd May 2010 at 14:11.
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Originally Posted by protectthehornet
I made it a point to hand fly from cruise/tod/ to touchdown.
If you are depending upon the automation to trim up every time you change configuration on approach...if you aren't using the approach phase to get the feel of slow flying the plane...then you aren't gaining the skills for that tough landing.
If you are depending upon the automation to trim up every time you change configuration on approach...if you aren't using the approach phase to get the feel of slow flying the plane...then you aren't gaining the skills for that tough landing.
All you do is load up your colleague, especially on a dark cr@ppy night at the end of 12 hour duty..... Handflying is fine from time to time, but seriously - from top of drop to touchdown??????????
........fairly confident this isnt the first air crash in India, and I am even more sure that an "local" aircrew has come to grief somewhere inside the Indian borders.
I was an observer at the subsequent Court of Inquiry in the Bombay High Court, and sadly the emphasis in finding the cause was entirely related to who was going to pay - Boeing for installing a dud ADI ? ( Artificial Horizon, the failure of which was assumed, but never categorically proved, to be the cause of the pilot incorrectly applying 100 deg of bank at around 1700 ft ) The ADI instrument manufacturer for making a dud ADI ? The airlines' engineering dept. for not maintaining the ADI correctly ? or the airlines' Flt. Ops Dept for not training pilots to recognise a failure of the ADI ?
But then we know that - sadly - everyone scrambles out from under, leaving the dead pilot no chance to explain, therefore it is clearly Pilot Error.
In this case the Judge came to that conclusion straight away; the SID required a 10 deg change of heading at 1500 ft.and the pilot, with everything working correctly at that stage and climbing safely skywards started to apply bank passing rapidly through 1300 ft. Clearly pilot error pronounced the judge, the SID states that a turn will be made at 1500 ft. not 1300 ft. Pilot Error.
Possibly, maybe, but not for that reason of course, the ADI would have reacted in exactly the same way had the turn been started a couple of seconds later at 1500 ft. as prescribed on the SID chart.
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What's the point in routinely hand flying from TOD? Maybe occasionally I can understand. The AP is there for a reason to take the workload off the pilot so he can concentrate on things like situational awareness etc. For sure as White Knight says, you will load up the PNF, especially if it's a busy TMA with plenty of ATC frequency changes, crap weather etc and achieve very little in the process.
Hand flying SIDs every now and then is good for instrument flying. I do this mainly with the FD. Also hand flying approaches from before glide slope intercept fairly frequently is definitely recommended. Again I mainly use the FD but in reasonable conditions would be happy to go raw data. IMHO this type of low level handling is far more beneficial than hand flying from TOD!
Hand flying SIDs every now and then is good for instrument flying. I do this mainly with the FD. Also hand flying approaches from before glide slope intercept fairly frequently is definitely recommended. Again I mainly use the FD but in reasonable conditions would be happy to go raw data. IMHO this type of low level handling is far more beneficial than hand flying from TOD!