Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: ball gazing
Anyone know if the BAe146-301 Atmospheric research Aircraft (ARA) has been involved in all this??
Flying Programme
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 98
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From: moving around
From a licensed engineer perspective
I have never seen a maintenance manual task for inspection after ingestion of volcanic ash. until there is one in the manual or an approved inspection from the manufacturer, how are engineer supposed to close a tech log entry for this type of ingestion event.
it is the duty of the manufacturer to prove that this type of ingestion event is safe.not willy walsh or a BA boroscope inspector.
did BA ,LH KLM or any other of these 'test airlines' contact the aircraft manufacturer after there flight and look for an inspection procedure??
airlines will probably have to carry out extensive aircraft inspections after each flight.. will this be worth it, an AOG after each flight??
thankfully we have a sensible group(eurocontrol) that are not reducing their saftey standards for commercial interests.
and BTW i am stranded in Hungary.
I have never seen a maintenance manual task for inspection after ingestion of volcanic ash. until there is one in the manual or an approved inspection from the manufacturer, how are engineer supposed to close a tech log entry for this type of ingestion event.
it is the duty of the manufacturer to prove that this type of ingestion event is safe.not willy walsh or a BA boroscope inspector.
did BA ,LH KLM or any other of these 'test airlines' contact the aircraft manufacturer after there flight and look for an inspection procedure??
airlines will probably have to carry out extensive aircraft inspections after each flight.. will this be worth it, an AOG after each flight??
thankfully we have a sensible group(eurocontrol) that are not reducing their saftey standards for commercial interests.
and BTW i am stranded in Hungary.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
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From: Peripatetic
The 6 flights put up prove nothing, as they are statistically insignificant.
The daily number of flights over Europe is around 24,000. If the chances of encountering a dense patch of dust sufficient to endanger the aircraft was only 0.01% then nearly 3 aircraft a day would have serious incidents. If it was 0.00% then it would be one aircraft every 4 days.
Try getting the airline insurance company to continue to provide cover if the airlines try and start flying again without scientific approval.
In the meantime, the Airlines are starting to request national and EU compensation in the same manner provided after 9/11.
BBC: BA seeks compensation for ash chaos
The daily number of flights over Europe is around 24,000. If the chances of encountering a dense patch of dust sufficient to endanger the aircraft was only 0.01% then nearly 3 aircraft a day would have serious incidents. If it was 0.00% then it would be one aircraft every 4 days.
Try getting the airline insurance company to continue to provide cover if the airlines try and start flying again without scientific approval.
In the meantime, the Airlines are starting to request national and EU compensation in the same manner provided after 9/11.
BBC: BA seeks compensation for ash chaos
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 214
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From: UK
F16 engines are not high bypass turbofans, so don't expect the to behave in a similar way.
An there was Helldog demanding the RAF fly Tornados into the ash deliberately to collect data.
Have you any idea of the futility of that and of how overstretched and under-resourced the armed forces are?Ground testing of engines with ash contaminants needs to be done, followed by air testing. I am not willing to be flying into unknown risk with or without passengers in a scenario that is going to affect all my engines, and I'm horrified at the arrogance and cavalier attitude of those who think this is all nothing and that we should get back in the air without proper scientific and engineering analysis. You bang on about your professionalism while showing anything but that, meanwhile you refuse to listen to experts in vulcanology, meteorolgy and engineering and refuse to believe the evidence of the several military aircaft affected in lod density ash areas.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 579
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From: L.A.
The Dornier
A single investigation on a short trip on a single day is not sufficient to be able to base any recommendations on. A heck of a lot more needs to be done, here's hoping our great leaders start acting proactively.
A single investigation on a short trip on a single day is not sufficient to be able to base any recommendations on. A heck of a lot more needs to be done, here's hoping our great leaders start acting proactively.
So why is it not flying every hour of every day??
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 26
Likes: 3
From: At home
This airspace closure is really getting out of bounds with all notion of common sense...
This whole thing really confirms the inabillity of politicians and officials to make any rational decision to any major crisis that creep up on them. As it has been made clear here in previous posts that no real measurement to speak of have been made on air contaminants and all decision making has been based on computer modeling and on what seems perception.
I do not recall a comparable mass hysteria taking place in southeast asia when Mt Pinatubo erupted in 1991. That eruption acording to wikipedia was second largest terrestrial eruption of the 20th century, 10 times larger than the 1980 eruption of Mt St. Helens and the resulting plume circled the globe in a couple of weeks. In comparison makes the current activity in Mt Eyjafjallajökull seem like a fart in the wind...
It is totally unacceptable that authorities in Europe with all modern technologies at their disposal do not put more effort into real measurement on this ´fart´. The only sensible method IMO is to put aircraft up there and boroscope before and after the flights in oder to establish wheter flying is safe or not, obviously I am not talking about flying into visible ash clouds.
The tests that BA, LH and KLM carried out over the weekend showed with out a doubt that deposites in the atmosphere do not affect engines or other aircraft equipment. Even though commercial pressure made the beforementioned airlines send aircraft up there ´into uncharted territory´, they would not put their reputations on the line and deem the airspace safe to fly in if it wouldn´t be. These airlines are all regarded as higly professional outfits and are repected by aviation experts all over the world.
I would think that by now it would be safe to asume that the initial plume has dispersed enough to resume at least 95% of normal flying in the region.
Enoug is enoug since by now our jobs are at serious risk here by inability of politicians and lawmakers to make a rational decision.
This whole thing really confirms the inabillity of politicians and officials to make any rational decision to any major crisis that creep up on them. As it has been made clear here in previous posts that no real measurement to speak of have been made on air contaminants and all decision making has been based on computer modeling and on what seems perception.
I do not recall a comparable mass hysteria taking place in southeast asia when Mt Pinatubo erupted in 1991. That eruption acording to wikipedia was second largest terrestrial eruption of the 20th century, 10 times larger than the 1980 eruption of Mt St. Helens and the resulting plume circled the globe in a couple of weeks. In comparison makes the current activity in Mt Eyjafjallajökull seem like a fart in the wind...
It is totally unacceptable that authorities in Europe with all modern technologies at their disposal do not put more effort into real measurement on this ´fart´. The only sensible method IMO is to put aircraft up there and boroscope before and after the flights in oder to establish wheter flying is safe or not, obviously I am not talking about flying into visible ash clouds.
The tests that BA, LH and KLM carried out over the weekend showed with out a doubt that deposites in the atmosphere do not affect engines or other aircraft equipment. Even though commercial pressure made the beforementioned airlines send aircraft up there ´into uncharted territory´, they would not put their reputations on the line and deem the airspace safe to fly in if it wouldn´t be. These airlines are all regarded as higly professional outfits and are repected by aviation experts all over the world.
I would think that by now it would be safe to asume that the initial plume has dispersed enough to resume at least 95% of normal flying in the region.
Enoug is enoug since by now our jobs are at serious risk here by inability of politicians and lawmakers to make a rational decision.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5
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From: Melton Mowbray
airspace closure
scuse my ignorance peeps, but I thought that only the Govt could close airspace. Isn't it true that the airspace is still open but that NATS are rejecting IFR flight plans. Can commercial ops be flown VFR?
Last edited by spamcanppl; 19th April 2010 at 11:54. Reason: (bad) spelling
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 118
Likes: 1
From: Geneva
does anyone know why the regular flight testing facilities and the military outfits throughout europe aren't giving out some results on this? surely they're not just sitting around watching tv like the rest of us.
or is it secret maybe...
or is it secret maybe...
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: L.A.
Thankfully we have a sensible group (eurocontrol) that are not reducing their saftey standards for commercial interests.
It is not Eurocontrol's decision to open or close airspace. As the guy from Eurocontrol made clear on CNN this morning, they implement any decision, but the decision is made by national governements.
But Gordon Brown has run for the hills, as is usual when a difficult decision has to be made, and so all we will see from the UK Parliament this week is a trail of dust from the heels of retreating ministers (volcanic dust, perhaps).
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,509
Likes: 7,252
From: Peripatetic
Who wanted the military to fly around and see what happened? 
NATO fighter jets land safely with volcanic ash damage
The Associated Press
BRUSSELS—A senior Western diplomat says several NATO F-16 fighters suffered engine damage after flying through the volcanic ash cloud covering large parts of Europe.
The official declined to provide more details on the military flights, except to say that glasslike deposits were found inside the planes’ engines after they patrolled over European airspace.
Last week, two Finnish Air Force F-18 fighter-bombers suffered similar damage while flying through the ash plume that has paralyzed air traffic over much of Europe. Both landed safely, but their jet engines will require expensive overhauls.
Volcanic ash tends to stick to a jet engine’s interior parts, such as the turbines, where it melts to form a glassy coating. This restricts air flow and heats up the engine, which can lead to engine failure.
NATO fighter jets land safely with volcanic ash damage
The Associated Press
BRUSSELS—A senior Western diplomat says several NATO F-16 fighters suffered engine damage after flying through the volcanic ash cloud covering large parts of Europe.
The official declined to provide more details on the military flights, except to say that glasslike deposits were found inside the planes’ engines after they patrolled over European airspace.
Last week, two Finnish Air Force F-18 fighter-bombers suffered similar damage while flying through the ash plume that has paralyzed air traffic over much of Europe. Both landed safely, but their jet engines will require expensive overhauls.
Volcanic ash tends to stick to a jet engine’s interior parts, such as the turbines, where it melts to form a glassy coating. This restricts air flow and heats up the engine, which can lead to engine failure.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 738
Likes: 4
From: london,uk
Can you please direct me to the website(s) where such information can be viewed? Thanks, mate.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...r-traffic.html
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 328
Likes: 16
From: Finland
HEL is opening but prognosis might be less desirable.
New cloud of volcanic ash to arrive in Finland on Tuesday -FMI
from Domestic news by [email protected] (HT Assiabi)
According to a forecast by the Finnish Meteorological Institute (FMI) on Monday, another cloud of volcanic ash from Iceland is expected to reach Finland by Tuesday.
The ash cloud is to arrive in southern Finland Tuesday afternoon and spread northwards to cover the entire country at least until Thursday, the forecast continued.
(Source: STT)
New cloud of volcanic ash to arrive in Finland on Tuesday -FMI
from Domestic news by [email protected] (HT Assiabi)
According to a forecast by the Finnish Meteorological Institute (FMI) on Monday, another cloud of volcanic ash from Iceland is expected to reach Finland by Tuesday.
The ash cloud is to arrive in southern Finland Tuesday afternoon and spread northwards to cover the entire country at least until Thursday, the forecast continued.
(Source: STT)
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
From: UK
This airspace closure is really getting out of bounds with all notion of common sense...
This whole thing really confirms the inabillity of politicians and officials to make any rational decision to any major crisis that creep up on them. As it has been made clear here in previous posts that no real measurement to speak of have been made on air contaminants and all decision making has been based on computer modeling and on what seems perception.
I do not recall a comparable mass hysteria taking place in southeast asia when Mt Pinatubo erupted in 1991. That eruption acording to wikipedia was second largest terrestrial eruption of the 20th century, 10 times larger than the 1980 eruption of Mt St. Helens and the resulting plume circled the globe in a couple of weeks. In comparison makes the current activity in Mt Eyjafjallajökull seem like a fart in the wind...
It is totally unacceptable that authorities in Europe with all modern technologies at their disposal do not put more effort into real measurement on this ´fart´. The only sensible method IMO is to put aircraft up there and boroscope before and after the flights in oder to establish wheter flying is safe or not, obviously I am not talking about flying into visible ash clouds.
The tests that BA, LH and KLM carried out over the weekend showed with out a doubt that deposites in the atmosphere do not affect engines or other aircraft equipment. Even though commercial pressure made the beforementioned airlines send aircraft up there ´into uncharted territory´, they would not put their reputations on the line and deem the airspace safe to fly in if it wouldn´t be. These airlines are all regarded as higly professional outfits and are repected by aviation experts all over the world.
I would think that by now it would be safe to asume that the initial plume has dispersed enough to resume at least 95% of normal flying in the region.
Enoug is enoug since by now our jobs are at serious risk here by inability of politicians and lawmakers to make a rational decision.
Early Right is online now Report Post
This whole thing really confirms the inabillity of politicians and officials to make any rational decision to any major crisis that creep up on them. As it has been made clear here in previous posts that no real measurement to speak of have been made on air contaminants and all decision making has been based on computer modeling and on what seems perception.
I do not recall a comparable mass hysteria taking place in southeast asia when Mt Pinatubo erupted in 1991. That eruption acording to wikipedia was second largest terrestrial eruption of the 20th century, 10 times larger than the 1980 eruption of Mt St. Helens and the resulting plume circled the globe in a couple of weeks. In comparison makes the current activity in Mt Eyjafjallajökull seem like a fart in the wind...
It is totally unacceptable that authorities in Europe with all modern technologies at their disposal do not put more effort into real measurement on this ´fart´. The only sensible method IMO is to put aircraft up there and boroscope before and after the flights in oder to establish wheter flying is safe or not, obviously I am not talking about flying into visible ash clouds.
The tests that BA, LH and KLM carried out over the weekend showed with out a doubt that deposites in the atmosphere do not affect engines or other aircraft equipment. Even though commercial pressure made the beforementioned airlines send aircraft up there ´into uncharted territory´, they would not put their reputations on the line and deem the airspace safe to fly in if it wouldn´t be. These airlines are all regarded as higly professional outfits and are repected by aviation experts all over the world.
I would think that by now it would be safe to asume that the initial plume has dispersed enough to resume at least 95% of normal flying in the region.
Enoug is enoug since by now our jobs are at serious risk here by inability of politicians and lawmakers to make a rational decision.
Early Right is online now Report Post
I don't want to see this stretch out any longer than is necessary - I have lost five days' worth of flight pay now (at least I'm at home, unlike many less fortunate colleagues and pax), and I worry about the financial impacts on the industry and the economy as a whole, but I just don't know whether it's safe to fly or not. The impartial evidence suggests strongly that it isn't, while PR stunts by the airlines, who appear to have avoided flying in the more concentrated cloud over the UK, do nothing to convince me of the safety of flying at all. I'd rather be at home worrying about cash flow than airborne worrying about my engines failing with the additional problems of the airports and airspace being congested with other emergency traffic.
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Monaco
German scientists plan to conduct a test flight on Monday to gain the first reliable data for the flight ban imposed on German airspace in the wake of fierce criticism of the ban by major European airlines.
The German Aerospace Center (DLR) said an atmospheric research plane will fly to a height of 10,000 meters (32,800 feet) to measure the concentration of volcanic ash particles in the air.
The Dassault Falcon 20 jet, staffed with experienced test pilots capable of handling extreme flying conditions, will take off as soon as it gets clearance, and the data it gains will be examined as quickly as possible to help the Germany's air traffic control and the meteorological service to assess the need for continuing the flight ban, a DLR spokesman said.
Eyjafjallajökull Chaos Blog: German Scientists to Measure Concentration of Volcanic Ash in Air - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
The German Aerospace Center (DLR) said an atmospheric research plane will fly to a height of 10,000 meters (32,800 feet) to measure the concentration of volcanic ash particles in the air.
The Dassault Falcon 20 jet, staffed with experienced test pilots capable of handling extreme flying conditions, will take off as soon as it gets clearance, and the data it gains will be examined as quickly as possible to help the Germany's air traffic control and the meteorological service to assess the need for continuing the flight ban, a DLR spokesman said.
Eyjafjallajökull Chaos Blog: German Scientists to Measure Concentration of Volcanic Ash in Air - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: UK
Some better news on the latest VAAC charts:
http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/d...1271676889.png
Issued 1234.
'Eruption has virtually ceased with only small amounts of ash up to FL060'
UKMO surface charts out to T+120, looks like a northerly airstream should pull down some clean polar air for a few days at least:
Metbrief - Met Office Analysis and Synoptic Weather Forecast Charts via Wetterzentrale
http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/d...1271676889.png
Issued 1234.
'Eruption has virtually ceased with only small amounts of ash up to FL060'
UKMO surface charts out to T+120, looks like a northerly airstream should pull down some clean polar air for a few days at least:
Metbrief - Met Office Analysis and Synoptic Weather Forecast Charts via Wetterzentrale
Last edited by BAMRA wake up; 19th April 2010 at 12:51. Reason: added 2nd link