Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Flashes from the Archives of Oblivion
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,171
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From: 03 ACE
So Desk-pilot, what is your take on the "30 plus and rising" aircraft, from various airlines and various countries that are now showing up flying through the very heart of the "Volcanic Cloud"
Joined: Feb 2010
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From: UK
Whippersnapper
Oh, now I understand. Will that be the reason that there has been so much damage reported to engines involved in the "test flights" ?
Dust/sand storms contain particles of greatly varying size, from recognizable "sand" at lower levels to dust particles measuring a few microns at 20,000 feet or more. So yes, I do believe it is a relevant analogy. Of course the different composition of a plume could have the results you mentioned, but happily, in these circumstances, it hasn't.
Dust/sand storms contain particles of greatly varying size, from recognizable "sand" at lower levels to dust particles measuring a few microns at 20,000 feet or more. So yes, I do believe it is a relevant analogy. Of course the different composition of a plume could have the results you mentioned, but happily, in these circumstances, it hasn't.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 881
Likes: 67
From: UK
re jim french flybe and willie(sack em all)walsh comments
further to my post
http://www.pprune.org/5644985-post1559.html
Jim French head of Flybe airlines at Exeter on BBC breakfast and Radio 5 this morning...
Quoted as saying the ash can be seen on aircraft radar...er since when?
Then just now Willie (sack em all) Walsh of BA said the no-fly ban is
unnecessary but in the next breath BBC says 4 NATO fighter jets damaged this morning because they flew through the ash clouds.
pffft
http://www.pprune.org/5644985-post1559.html
Jim French head of Flybe airlines at Exeter on BBC breakfast and Radio 5 this morning...
Quoted as saying the ash can be seen on aircraft radar...er since when?
Then just now Willie (sack em all) Walsh of BA said the no-fly ban is
unnecessary but in the next breath BBC says 4 NATO fighter jets damaged this morning because they flew through the ash clouds.
pffft
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: UK
From Airbus' own Flight Ops Briefing Notes:
" Nine VAAC have been designated by international organisations to provide expert advice to Meterological Watch Offices regarding the location and expected movement of volcanic ash clouds."
It would seem a paradox to set up an internationally recognised group of experts and then ignore their advice. Mind you it wouldn't be the first time!
" Nine VAAC have been designated by international organisations to provide expert advice to Meterological Watch Offices regarding the location and expected movement of volcanic ash clouds."
It would seem a paradox to set up an internationally recognised group of experts and then ignore their advice. Mind you it wouldn't be the first time!
Flashes from the Archives of Oblivion
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,171
Likes: 189
From: 03 ACE
It appears that due to commercial pressure from airlines, the resolve is beginning to crack.
It will be interesting to see how history judges this albeit continuing situation.
My totally unqualified judgment, based simply on the both appalling and laughable history of the MET Services and the crippling, pathetic directives from the Health and Safety bodies, that this will collapse, thrashing its little legs, straight into the same little box.
Belgian F18 or ASAF F16's apart, lets wait and see what "catastrophic" effects occur to the rapidly increasing number of civil aircraft currently ploughing their weary way through the "Volcanic Cloud"
Any down yet ???
It will be interesting to see how history judges this albeit continuing situation.
My totally unqualified judgment, based simply on the both appalling and laughable history of the MET Services and the crippling, pathetic directives from the Health and Safety bodies, that this will collapse, thrashing its little legs, straight into the same little box.
Belgian F18 or ASAF F16's apart, lets wait and see what "catastrophic" effects occur to the rapidly increasing number of civil aircraft currently ploughing their weary way through the "Volcanic Cloud"
Any down yet ???
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 14
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From: London
Also uk airspace planned to be opened up from 06.00 (scottish airspace)Midlands at 12.00 and southern uk at 18.00 following the reduction in volcanic activity!
Not set in stone...just maximising a potential window....
Not set in stone...just maximising a potential window....
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 505
Likes: 1
From: Wiltshire, UK
Not set in stone...
I suppose these early pioneers will have the engines borescoped pretty regularly - the 'airtests' of yesterday were only of a few hours duration. The cumulative effects of 20, 50, 100 hours flying will be the proof of the pudding.
The only slight concern is that all engines on each a/c will have operated in the same conditions, so if one were to suffer contam. the others would be in a similar state.
Here's hoping that all will be well.
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Euroland
Belgian F18 or ASAF F16's apart, lets wait and see what "catastrophic" effects occur to the rapidly increasing number of civil aircraft currently ploughing their weary way through the "Volcanic Cloud"
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
Bruce Wayne
Finally some data to put things in perspective
The safety first crowd and running a business with maintainence related decision making can finally come to an agreement with data and a risk management approach.
The aviation industry, manufacturers, operators and regulators know how to manage safety and what data is necessary. Unfortunately it is taking too long to sort this out but we will get there.
We just seem to get conflicting view points in discussion forums like this from folks who have no experience in risk management.
The cloud is neither black nor white
...... I've bough and sold a number of commercial jet engines over the past few years. One, off wing from a 737 had 9 T1 blades melted through, but you know what, the engine still made its EGT's in limits in the test cell.
There are, and always be contaminats in the air, many of these are destructive to engines over time and as such there are TBO limits on blades, disks, hubs, bearings, shafts etc becuase of this.
Shutting down an airspace over an unknown contaminant level, not knowing where it is, or even what levels are acceptable in terms of everyday exposure is simply crass and destructive to the industry.
Is North African airspace shut down due to dust storms which regularly sump sand over the UK ? do other countries which have regular volcanic activity shut down airspace completely?
We have ASHTAM's they should be used.
There are, and always be contaminats in the air, many of these are destructive to engines over time and as such there are TBO limits on blades, disks, hubs, bearings, shafts etc becuase of this.
Shutting down an airspace over an unknown contaminant level, not knowing where it is, or even what levels are acceptable in terms of everyday exposure is simply crass and destructive to the industry.
Is North African airspace shut down due to dust storms which regularly sump sand over the UK ? do other countries which have regular volcanic activity shut down airspace completely?
We have ASHTAM's they should be used.
Finally some data to put things in perspective
The safety first crowd and running a business with maintainence related decision making can finally come to an agreement with data and a risk management approach.
The aviation industry, manufacturers, operators and regulators know how to manage safety and what data is necessary. Unfortunately it is taking too long to sort this out but we will get there.
We just seem to get conflicting view points in discussion forums like this from folks who have no experience in risk management.
The cloud is neither black nor white
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 206
Likes: 5
From: Somewhere Over America
Now talk of airspace opening in stages tomorrow. Scottish at 6am then working south throughout the day!
Someone should strap a 737 to their ass and go out to fly a full day of simulated air carrier operations around Europe for the day. At night the boys in maintenance get the plane. Do this for at least three days and then release the rest of the fleet. Bird number one would always get extra special handling each night for the next month or two because it would be the bird in the mine.
Problem with this theory is PW, RR & GE only have so many spare parts. If the entire fleet runs out of engine parts in a month or two everyone will really be up in arms except PW, RR & GE who will tack on an extra 100% to every "expedited" part.
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: .
Statement on Icelandic volcanic eruption: Monday April 19, 1530
The volcanic eruption has reduced and the volcano is not currently emitting ash to altitudes that will affect the UK. Assuming there are no further significant ash emissions we are now looking at a continuously improving situation.
Based on the latest information from the Met Office, NATS advises that the restrictions currently in place across UK controlled airspace will remain in place until 0700 (local time) tomorrow, Tuesday.
From 0700 (local time) tomorrow, Tuesday, Scottish airspace will be open, and south to a line between Teeside and Blackpool. Mainland Scottish airports will be open.
This is a dynamic and changing situation and is therefore difficult to forecast beyond 0700 local; however, the latest Met Office advice is that the contaminated area will continue to move south with the possibility that restrictions to airspace above England and Wales, including the London area, may be lifted later tomorrow (Tuesday).
We will continue to monitor Met Office information and review our arrangements in line with that. We will advise further arrangements at approximately 2100 (local time), today.
It is now for airports and airlines to decide how best to utilise this opportunity. Passengers should contact their airlines to find out how this will affect their travel plans.
The volcanic eruption has reduced and the volcano is not currently emitting ash to altitudes that will affect the UK. Assuming there are no further significant ash emissions we are now looking at a continuously improving situation.
Based on the latest information from the Met Office, NATS advises that the restrictions currently in place across UK controlled airspace will remain in place until 0700 (local time) tomorrow, Tuesday.
From 0700 (local time) tomorrow, Tuesday, Scottish airspace will be open, and south to a line between Teeside and Blackpool. Mainland Scottish airports will be open.
This is a dynamic and changing situation and is therefore difficult to forecast beyond 0700 local; however, the latest Met Office advice is that the contaminated area will continue to move south with the possibility that restrictions to airspace above England and Wales, including the London area, may be lifted later tomorrow (Tuesday).
We will continue to monitor Met Office information and review our arrangements in line with that. We will advise further arrangements at approximately 2100 (local time), today.
It is now for airports and airlines to decide how best to utilise this opportunity. Passengers should contact their airlines to find out how this will affect their travel plans.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Where its at
Ground testing of engines with ash contaminants needs to be done, followed by air testing. I am not willing to be flying into unknown risk with or without passengers in a scenario that is going to affect all my engines, and I'm horrified at the arrogance and cavalier attitude of those who think this is all nothing and that we should get back in the air without proper scientific and engineering analysis. You bang on about your professionalism while showing anything but that, meanwhile you refuse to listen to experts in vulcanology, meteorolgy and engineering and refuse to believe the evidence of the several military aircaft affected in lod density ash areas.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 206
Likes: 5
From: Somewhere Over America
WingoWango,
Those flights were publicity stunts.
If they had flown for 8 to 10 hours with multiple climbs and descents with thermal cycles like a real engine would go through for three or four days then I might buy off on it but as it is the true guinea pigs will be paying passengers in the back.
Seen this:
Volcanic Ash Gives Jet Engine a Turbocharge : Discovery News
Those flights were publicity stunts.
If they had flown for 8 to 10 hours with multiple climbs and descents with thermal cycles like a real engine would go through for three or four days then I might buy off on it but as it is the true guinea pigs will be paying passengers in the back.
Seen this:
Volcanic Ash Gives Jet Engine a Turbocharge : Discovery News