Ash clouds threaten air traffic

[sitigeltfel]

Meanwhile, some scum are trying to cash in with this scam..

BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | Ash compensation e-mail 'is fake'

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by F14

I have no problem during the day avoiding the stuff visually.

- this is a common misunderstanding of the nature of the beast. Yes, we can all avoid the large chunks of rock, black stuff and towering white plumes - probably even on a clear night as well. What you cannot necessarily SEE to AVOID is the fine ash which is there. Here lies the great unknown. What damage, long or medium term is this likely to do to engines and airframes?

You need to forget the Eric Moody "I'm in the loo - what's that deafening silence - ah yes, it's the engines stopped" scenario. I think we can now say that it is only the most foolhardy or unaware in this day and age who would get into that position.

I am not convinced that the authorities REALLY know what they are doing. A large part of what is happening -"yes, it's safe"/"oh no - it's not" appears to be based on an element of guesswork coupled with political and economic pressures. Only time will tell whether we have this right.

[BillS]

From yesterday's coast guard flight : ash volumes increasing but heavier density than original activity.
Earthquake activity suggesting more to come.

[brooksjg]

you don't try to get insurance after the event has happened

yup - that's what I said!!

I think you'll find that starting from where we are.....

...

[Pace]

What damage, long or medium term is this likely to do to engines and airframes?

BOAC

As long as it is medium or longterm damage and not "instant" damage that is of little concern to us other than through increased airfares to cover the extra maintenance and rectification work.

That problem becomes a business cost problem and not a safety issue.
What I would like to ask the sooth sayers here is what their solution is?

Barring a detailed research programme into the damage effects of low level ash which will still need field testing what are the alternatives?

Do you close down masses of airspace which may contain tiny amounts of ash until they are totally clear?

Or do you take a slightly less cautious approach?

We already identified that as yet NO aircraft has been downed with loss of life because of ash. That even includes heavy ash encounters.

That cannot be said of Bird strikes yet we accept those risks as we do other risks which do have a fatality record.

Let us just hope that in this latest eruption the ash is not directed and held over the UK for days like last time.

Pace

[forget]

FAA Statement on Volcanic Ash. Before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Science and Technology, Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics on Mitigating the Impact of Volcanic Ash Clouds on Aviation – What Do We Need To Know?

Testimony

[declanfogarty]

usual american stuff but nothing about piston engines

Is there any evidence of non visible ash damaging piston engines?

[Pace]

Forget

Although the FAA does not recommend engine operation or flight into a visible volcanic ash cloud, we do recommend that aircraft owners and operators obtain definitive information on operational limitations around ash clouds, if any, from each of the European National Authority of the State(s), over which they plan flight operations.

This is the bit which becomes very vague

Pace

[INKJET]

Greinar < Fróðleikur < Jarðhræringar < Veðurstofa Íslands

Cracking photos of what cracking off up there in Iceland, status reports indicate that activity is increasing compared with last week, need some low pressure to move the ash clouds.

[Airforce1]

And to the Air Lingus crew flying into Dublin this morning:
Please tell us all what ash smells like , since your radio transmissions reporting to all that you can smell ash while descending through 16000ft -perhaps your galley stoves are cooking overtime, or engines ...

[glad rag]

Turbo twin just landed at Dundee 30 mins or so ago..

[chris weston]

At this QTH (Wirral) at sea level it smelt faintly like a blast furnace or perhaps a foundry on the two due dates here.

Hard to articulate it any more clearly than that; it's distinctive and memorable and BBQ it ain't.

CW

[sb_sfo]

Airforce1

Suggest you pay a visit to Yellowstone, particularly downwind of a paint pot (bubbling colored puddle of volcanic mud) and you'll know what it smells like.

[Sunfish]

Pace:

As long as it is medium or longterm damage and not "instant" damage that is of little concern to us other than through increased airfares to cover the extra maintenance and rectification work.

That problem becomes a business cost problem and not a safety issue.
What I would like to ask the sooth sayers here is what their solution is?

Barring a detailed research programme into the damage effects of low level ash which will still need field testing what are the alternatives?

Do you close down masses of airspace which may contain tiny amounts of ash until they are totally clear?

Or do you take a slightly less cautious approach?

We already identified that as yet NO aircraft has been downed with loss of life because of ash. That even includes heavy ash encounters.

1. While the cost may be of little concern to you, I can assure you that a mistake on the part of the engine manufacturers, airframe builders, airlines, met office and regulators is likely to be extremely costly. It's not even about the cost of the components to be replaced, It's about the logistics of suddenly requiring the inspection, repair or replacement of perhaps hundreds of engines per day.

There are about 1000 transatlantic flights to and from Europe per day. Say 10% get a mouthful of ash. Guessing the mix of Two, and Four engine aircraft, lets say that we have 300+ affected engines. There is simply not enough labour, spare engines or spare parts, or component repair capacity to handle this workload - and this is only in one day!

2. The only "alternative" I'm aware of is not to fly the aircraft in Ash.


To put it another way, in terms you might understand better, let us say that by some ungodly mistake, extremely sharp nails were scattered over the length and breadth of British roads, such that one in Ten cars found themselves with a puncture each day.

The queues at garages on day one would be a mile long. By day Two all garages are out of new tyres and repair materials and their staff are exhausted. At the end of day Three, there is not a spare tyre or tube to be found in Britain and the motorways and roads are littered with disabled cars.

Do you get the picture now?

[richterscale10]

Supposed to flying ex MAN - DUB - MCO tomorrow ....but

I need help ! Can I get this right in my head that where the VAC charts show red this is the DANGER area and a/c will not be flying there ??? So - looking like DUB is gonna be out for some time tomorrow .............. sort me out !!

[cldrvr]

Katla itself just had a tremor, with 4 new ones at Eyjafjallajökull.

Am not a volcanoligist so have no clue if this has any meaning.

Edit: if Katla goes, at least we can spell and pronounce it the other one just sounds like egg falafel

[richterscale10]

so......can you ?

I need help ! Can I get this right in my head that where the VAC charts show red this is the DANGER area and a/c will not be flying there ??? So - looking like DUB is gonna be out for some time tomorrow .............. sort me out !!

[Pace]

Sunfish

Do you get the picture now?

I noted all the aircraft being stripped caused by the last ash pollution after the authorities raised the acceptable ash levels.
It was amazing to watch all the engineers working around the clock to deal with a mass of parked up damaged aircraft.

Do I get the picture?

Oh well whatever makes you happy

Pace

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by declanfogarty

Is there any evidence of non visible ash damaging piston engines?

Let me give you some experiences from the time of Mount St Helens in the USA, from those who were right alongside, and in comparison to which this Iceland volcano is a mere pimple in comparison.

Roads downwind were so extensively covered that they had to get snowploughs out; quite some damage was done by trees being overwhelmed by the weight of ash deposited o them, and they fell over.

Yet damage to reciprocating engines of various types was really non-existent. Railway locomotives on lines downwind were fine and carried on, provided they changed the air flters every day, cars were similar. I don't recall any increase in mechanical problems after the ash, although there was a lot of cleaning. Don't know about GA in the area but certainly airline service in the downwind area was little affected. And this was ash you could see.

[upandoffmyside]

Met Office Ash Concentration Charts

Richeterscale10

Met Office: Icelandic volcano - Ash concentration charts

The Met Office charts that show the two levels of ash densities look promising for the UK/Ireland tomorrow. The solid black area is the "no-go" area of high ash conc. which the CAA also gives an additional 60nm buffer to ..

The solid red area is the lower level of ash density which the authorities says is ok to fly in now ....

It's the solid black area and the 60nm buffer that has caused problems today ..

The other original Met Office Ash charts show the general area of Ash down to a low level of particle concentration that take no account of the recently defined "ok to operate in low ash density areas" - and those have the red boardered areas.

hope that helps.