NTSB Recommends Airlines Routinely Monitor CVR's
Trash du Blanc
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If this does happen, we can't say we didn't bring it on ourselves, at least here in the U.S.
Like my grandpa used to say, people generally get the respect they deserve. Lexington, Buffalo and Charlotte (BE-1900) all left violations of sterile cockpit on the tape. NWA's overfly incident was as egregious as they come.
Like my grandpa used to say, people generally get the respect they deserve. Lexington, Buffalo and Charlotte (BE-1900) all left violations of sterile cockpit on the tape. NWA's overfly incident was as egregious as they come.
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I like what CarltonBrowne the FO said; allow the SAFETY department to view these tapes. If there's a true safety issue, it can be dealt with. If someone says something that management wouldn't agree with, too bad for management. Just because you say something that goes against what one person says does not give that person the right to fire you. Now, if you're chatting about Porsche and Mercedes at 50' from landing, you're gonna have to explain yourself.
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S7777
You are talking BS.
Downloading and deciphering CVRs takes man-hours and job-orders.
In any decent a/l these job-orders (MAINT entries on the TLP) will be kept on file for a while.
I recently had a meet with my CP over a young "protected" but under-performing FO. The boss had ordered the tape to be removed as I stood accused of verbal abuse, but did not have it deciphered as he would have needed a valid excuse to do so... And, of course, he didn't have one.
Still I support the monitoring below 10000' as it will definitely help improve safety.
You are talking BS.
Downloading and deciphering CVRs takes man-hours and job-orders.
In any decent a/l these job-orders (MAINT entries on the TLP) will be kept on file for a while.
I recently had a meet with my CP over a young "protected" but under-performing FO. The boss had ordered the tape to be removed as I stood accused of verbal abuse, but did not have it deciphered as he would have needed a valid excuse to do so... And, of course, he didn't have one.
Still I support the monitoring below 10000' as it will definitely help improve safety.
Interesting and valuable reactions above.
Do we trust the crew-union safety officer and the company safety officer to extract some lessons learned out of CVR samplings without retribution other than a visit over a spot of tea?
The fewer the number of people that participate in a party-balanced review the less chance of embarassing leaks of tidbits rather than generic lessons.
Do we trust the crew-union safety officer and the company safety officer to extract some lessons learned out of CVR samplings without retribution other than a visit over a spot of tea?
The fewer the number of people that participate in a party-balanced review the less chance of embarassing leaks of tidbits rather than generic lessons.
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If the 10000' mark is the main issue, then pass a law/regulation that the company (through safety officers etc.) can only listen to the cockpit conversation up to and down from 10000'.
7 7 7 7
7 7 7 7
Don't forget the thread is about CVR, not QAR/FDR.
In my British company I was happy that BALPA was on top of QAR monitoring; not so sure about another employer at about GMT+8
In my British company I was happy that BALPA was on top of QAR monitoring; not so sure about another employer at about GMT+8
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There's a whole world or changes coming with regard to flight recorders.
The FAA have launch a final rule on CVR and DFDR regulations.
ICAO have proposed ammendments to Annex 6 Part 1, 2 and 3.
EASA have an NPA out there for the changes too.
Eurocae ED112 has superceeded ED55 and ED56.
I think what is implied by this report is that airlines will have to begin scheduled downloads of CVR data similar to what happens to DFDRs to verify that the quality of the recordings is of an acceptable standard.
Additionally the FAA rule requires all FAA regulated aircraft to have TSO-124a approved CVRs fitted which have a 2 hour recording duration.
Some of the other changes are the recording of datalink messages which is going to come in. Most manufacturers are looking at recording this data to the CVR rather than in a seperate recorder.
Additionally the proposed ammendments to Annex 6 and Eurocae ED112 expand the number of recording systems from two, CVR and DFDR to four, CVR, DFDR, Datalink Recorders, Flight Video Recorders.
Lots of work required by the aircraft manufacturers to make this happen though so don't expect it over night!
The FAA have launch a final rule on CVR and DFDR regulations.
ICAO have proposed ammendments to Annex 6 Part 1, 2 and 3.
EASA have an NPA out there for the changes too.
Eurocae ED112 has superceeded ED55 and ED56.
I think what is implied by this report is that airlines will have to begin scheduled downloads of CVR data similar to what happens to DFDRs to verify that the quality of the recordings is of an acceptable standard.
Additionally the FAA rule requires all FAA regulated aircraft to have TSO-124a approved CVRs fitted which have a 2 hour recording duration.
Some of the other changes are the recording of datalink messages which is going to come in. Most manufacturers are looking at recording this data to the CVR rather than in a seperate recorder.
Additionally the proposed ammendments to Annex 6 and Eurocae ED112 expand the number of recording systems from two, CVR and DFDR to four, CVR, DFDR, Datalink Recorders, Flight Video Recorders.
Lots of work required by the aircraft manufacturers to make this happen though so don't expect it over night!
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there ought to be:
real time voice and video links to the ground from the cockpit and retired pilots employed by the NTSB should be monitoring things...a pilot could not lose his job for saying:
management sucks:
but he might lose his job for saying : Management sucks below 10,000feet ;-)
management sucks:
but he might lose his job for saying : Management sucks below 10,000feet ;-)
Trash du Blanc
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There once was a small freight operation that had a chief pilot named Joe.
There was a landing incident, involving some blown tires. The CVR was downloaded and reviewed.
Evidently the chief pilot had just made some announcement or other. In the descent, the captain was recorded to have said, "Well, I guess ol' Joe's taking us up the a## again...."
There was a landing incident, involving some blown tires. The CVR was downloaded and reviewed.
Evidently the chief pilot had just made some announcement or other. In the descent, the captain was recorded to have said, "Well, I guess ol' Joe's taking us up the a## again...."
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How safe can we be ?
I like this job less and less.
I would agree if you taped Management meetings as Corporate culture features in to most accidents and should be monitored.
If management makes a decision to push flight times or reduce crew, or crew control calls someone out in a way that reduces their rest it should all be recorded and reviewed !!
That is much more likely to cause an accident than chatter of competent crew !!
I think that they should have someone chattering like hell during your sim rides so that you can concentrate under distraction.
.25c
I would agree if you taped Management meetings as Corporate culture features in to most accidents and should be monitored.
If management makes a decision to push flight times or reduce crew, or crew control calls someone out in a way that reduces their rest it should all be recorded and reviewed !!
That is much more likely to cause an accident than chatter of competent crew !!
I think that they should have someone chattering like hell during your sim rides so that you can concentrate under distraction.
.25c
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Every Other...
... employee of every major concern has been subjected to video and audio surveillance for the last two decades.
Personally, I'd prefer that your employers didn't download CVR and FDR data as a way of "keeping tabs" on you.
On the other hand -
- funny how there is always that extra other hand...
... some of the employment situations pilots find themselves in truly warrant constant review.
Young newbs who don't consider themselves to be mortal or fallible might benefit from this.
It would be a huge violation of workspace privacy to those who have proven themselves through years of exemplary performance.
But there needs to be a compromise.
Grown from roots pilots might need to accept more monitoring, simply to help younger pilots who have not had the benefit of the same training and chance for experience.
Do I think it's a good idea personally?
With great emphasis, NO!
But, I'm from the generation who reveled in flying aboard a 727.
Facts are, many pilots now are there for the earning potential as primary consideration.
If anyone else can help with this thought, I'll be grateful.
A certain percentage of those who worked themselves into right or left seats did so simply for the prestige and the money.
But many, perhaps most, climbed there way up because of a love for flight and genuine respect for the wonderful aircraft they could fly.
I think the percentage has changed in the last decade or so.
Not to insult any, and certainly not to insult the pilots who frequent PPruNe and post (and often excoriate me) I think the balance has shifted a bit.
Now, more are in it for the money, and fewer are in it for the love.
Do I object to constant review of pilots who consider their occupation just a job?
Not one bit. Have at it.
But, I truly don't want anyone to inhibit those pilots who consider their avocation to be what it truly is - a form of modern art which requires utmost skill, concentration, and knowledge to perform correctly.
Out of 10,000 flights, perhaps one flight would benefit from being monitored; the others would simply be a waste of time. Of this 10k, most points of interest would likely fall into the category of training and the information provided by ATC.
Out of a million flights, perhaps one would reveal "unacceptable" behavior on the flight deck.
And out of those, maybe one or two would present actionable behavior.
If we could "strip out" all the negatives at this point, we'd prolly have an extremely safe system. Adequate rest, a level of zero stress reporting for a flight, more accurate and reassuring load sheets.
Until we can provide that, we'll be stuck with the same system we have now. It's moderately safe.
Many new pilots are ushered into a system which, by its own admission, has a plethora of mutually exclusive compromises. Economics versus safety. Schedule versus safety and customer service.
I'm not knocking the current scheme, simply saying it could be much better.
RR
Personally, I'd prefer that your employers didn't download CVR and FDR data as a way of "keeping tabs" on you.
On the other hand -
- funny how there is always that extra other hand...
... some of the employment situations pilots find themselves in truly warrant constant review.
Young newbs who don't consider themselves to be mortal or fallible might benefit from this.
It would be a huge violation of workspace privacy to those who have proven themselves through years of exemplary performance.
But there needs to be a compromise.
Grown from roots pilots might need to accept more monitoring, simply to help younger pilots who have not had the benefit of the same training and chance for experience.
Do I think it's a good idea personally?
With great emphasis, NO!
But, I'm from the generation who reveled in flying aboard a 727.
Facts are, many pilots now are there for the earning potential as primary consideration.
If anyone else can help with this thought, I'll be grateful.
A certain percentage of those who worked themselves into right or left seats did so simply for the prestige and the money.
But many, perhaps most, climbed there way up because of a love for flight and genuine respect for the wonderful aircraft they could fly.
I think the percentage has changed in the last decade or so.
Not to insult any, and certainly not to insult the pilots who frequent PPruNe and post (and often excoriate me) I think the balance has shifted a bit.
Now, more are in it for the money, and fewer are in it for the love.
Do I object to constant review of pilots who consider their occupation just a job?
Not one bit. Have at it.
But, I truly don't want anyone to inhibit those pilots who consider their avocation to be what it truly is - a form of modern art which requires utmost skill, concentration, and knowledge to perform correctly.
Out of 10,000 flights, perhaps one flight would benefit from being monitored; the others would simply be a waste of time. Of this 10k, most points of interest would likely fall into the category of training and the information provided by ATC.
Out of a million flights, perhaps one would reveal "unacceptable" behavior on the flight deck.
And out of those, maybe one or two would present actionable behavior.
If we could "strip out" all the negatives at this point, we'd prolly have an extremely safe system. Adequate rest, a level of zero stress reporting for a flight, more accurate and reassuring load sheets.
Until we can provide that, we'll be stuck with the same system we have now. It's moderately safe.
Many new pilots are ushered into a system which, by its own admission, has a plethora of mutually exclusive compromises. Economics versus safety. Schedule versus safety and customer service.
I'm not knocking the current scheme, simply saying it could be much better.
RR
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Just another good reason....
To push the erase button at the end of every flight. Start now so you may be in practice when the time comes.
The worst CRM could come when crew sit together, and dont say anything for the whole flight. Anyone can do a checklist while pointing instead of talking!!
Imagine the amazement of management listening to a recording with no talking except on the radio. Spooky!!
The worst CRM could come when crew sit together, and dont say anything for the whole flight. Anyone can do a checklist while pointing instead of talking!!
Imagine the amazement of management listening to a recording with no talking except on the radio. Spooky!!
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relax
few of the NTSB's ideas have been adopted.
why not demand that pay at an airline allow for a middle class to upper middle class lifestyle within 50 miles of the airport?
few of the NTSB's ideas have been adopted.
why not demand that pay at an airline allow for a middle class to upper middle class lifestyle within 50 miles of the airport?
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Which Dimwit thought this up
Good one someone else with no idea of the aviation environment sticking their oar in....Start this crap and see chewing gum on the monitor heads or cb's pulled or tapes disappearing etc what a negative contribution to flight safety.
It really frightens me to think of the poor quality people we have in charge of some of the most important legislation in this business. Come on lady push off before you cause any permanent damage here.
You really want to sort out potential safety issues…look at the hours and duty periods that pilots are expected to work…..or is that not a commercial option…money or safety……. eh?.....
It really frightens me to think of the poor quality people we have in charge of some of the most important legislation in this business. Come on lady push off before you cause any permanent damage here.
You really want to sort out potential safety issues…look at the hours and duty periods that pilots are expected to work…..or is that not a commercial option…money or safety……. eh?.....
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This could be one of the few things that would have me feeling sorry for management...
Imagine... hours upon hours of listening to...
" Roster.. Whinge Whinge... Bidding..Whinge Whinge... Flight pay... Whinge Whinge ... State of the Industry ... Whinge Whinge ad nauseum
Imagine... hours upon hours of listening to...
" Roster.. Whinge Whinge... Bidding..Whinge Whinge... Flight pay... Whinge Whinge ... State of the Industry ... Whinge Whinge ad nauseum
Trash du Blanc
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Other union investigators suggested a plastic cap for CAM (easily purchased at any hardware store).
(break break)
Think of the logistics for a second - I'd imagine that for every two-man cockpit, you'd need at least two people whose full-time job would be to listen to CVR data. That'd be over 600 people at my company alone.....
