NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots

[Airbubba]

Can somebody remind me where the rumor about arguning about company proceedures came from?

I believe this version is from a publicly available police report.

From today's Wall Street Journal web page:

The situation became even more murky when it turned out that the pilots told law-enforcement officials waiting for them at the Minneapolis-St. Paul international airport that they simply got distracted by a heated discussion over company policy and lost track of where they were.

Pilots to Tell NTSB They Weren't Asleep - WSJ.com

[BOAC]

I'm beginning to like the idea that they had the wrong route in the box - multi-sector/multi-destination etc - 'if it is Friday it must be.... oh hell! it's Thursday'

What about the paperwork, though? Hmm!

[AnthonyGA]

I notice that the pilots assert that they were distracted rather than asleep. If they were really asleep, it seems to me that it would be better to admit it than to make up a story about being distracted. Falling asleep is physiologically inevitable if they are excessively tired, whereas not paying attention to their job is a serious and avoidable mistake that can easily justify dismissal. So if they are insisting that they weren't asleep, this fact alone tends to imply that they are telling the truth. Why would they make it worse for themselves?

Of course, falling asleep is a serious problem, too, but, whereas not paying attention is entirely the pilots' fault, fatigue could also be partly the fault of an abusive employer. I suppose pilots technically have the right to cancel their trips if they perceive that they are too tired to fly, but how many pilots actually do that and manage to escape any retribution by their employers?

[xetroV]

Originally Posted by Avman

You've all got it wrong. They loaded DTW, their other hub, iso MSP into the FMS. The error only came to light when the F/A intervened.

I think this is a plausible theory and one that can be easily proved by looking up the destination airport as stored on the Flight Data Recorder / ACMS. Of course, there are more holes in the cheese in that scenario too (such as loosing radio-contact).

[grebllaw123d]

DTW punched into the FMC as destination?

xetroV,

I do not think that this is a plausible explanation for 2 reasons.
1. The track flown beyond MSP as shown in post#5 does not lead to DTW.
2. The routing San Diego- DTW will not pass MSP.

bgds

[Avman]

You've all got it wrong. They loaded DTW, their other hub, iso MSP into the FMS.

T'was actually said TIC, based loosely on something that occurred in our airspace a few moons ago when another route then that which had been filed in the FPL was entered into the FMS. (The company had several route options for the dep/dest concerned).

[filejw]

123d All above incorrect. NWA dispatch have many routes between the west coast and DTW depending on wind and weather. I have personally flown over MSP en route to DTW from SoCal and you can be routed father to the northeast toward GRB to get to DTW.

[BenThere]

Review their track on page one of this thread.

Looks to me like they hit Redwood Falls, the last fix on the normal KSAN-KMSP flight plan route and the first fix of their likely arrival, SKETR 3. Then, as I suspect the arrival was not loaded, they proceded to the next and last fix in the box, KMSP. Overflying that, they continued on the heading they held to get from RWF to KMSP. They would have had to make a right hand turn to get to either GRB, EAU, or BAE, that might take them to KDTW on a deviated route. That didn't occur, therefore I conclude it wasn't a misloaded destination that caused the problem.

Also note the radar returns overlayed on their route. I don't think a dispatch-altered route would have deviated them so far north given the relatively benign weather they were experiencing.

Your thesis, filejw, might be plausible had there been an extended weather area to avoid, but that clearly wasn't the case on the night in question.

[filejw]

Ben, All I'm saying is NWA does go that far north to get to DTW not that that's what i think they did. In fact my 320 friends are getting word it is a small mechanical and then procedural errors after missing a hand off.I have know idea what the subject they were talking about to miss the hand off. Maybe they were trying to figure out the 7 new heath care options Delta just presented us with. LOL

[LastCall]

Couple of things that are SOP at our place after loading the FMC, and I’m sure at most others, is a check for possible gross errors in the loading process:

1- Total distance in the FMC agrees with that of the flight plan.
2- Time to destination in the FMC agrees with the flight plan.
3- Fuel over destination in the FMC agrees with the flight plan.

If these simple checks had been carried out after the FMC was loaded at the departure airport then how could an accidental loading of the wrong destination NOT have been detected before they left San Diego???

Seems an unlikely scenario to this observer.

[mseyfang]

Ben There

I agree with you. If you pull up the flight on flightaware, the flight plan route -- ...FSD...RWF...SKETR3 is what they flew. SKETR3 is a straight track toward MSP from RWF; they simply overflew MSP on the same course as that arrival. IMO, that's pretty conclusive in ruling out some sort of data entry error.

[protectthehornet]

Question

Has Northwest recently changed its radio call sign to Delta?

[Newforest2]

I think post 36 page 2 will answer your question.

[CaptainChaotic]

We used to play games with each other(no SLF & over jungle), when one of us fell asleep the other would shout "turning", which meant you had already missed your marker, the look of terror was a sight to behold.

When your having a microsleep it's always the unexpected sounds that wake you, in this case the CC calling. Any sound that is expected can be quite loud and you miss it.

Your limbic brain still operates when sleeping, the best solution would be a sound that is different each time.

[captjns]

Has Northwest recently changed its radio call sign to Delta?

Wouldn't the crew a wee be a bit suspicious for being out of radio contact for more than an hour?

[RobertS975]

I agree with those that feel that the future salvation of their careers would have been better had they stated that they had fallen asleep rather than clain they were distracted. If they had fallen asleep, they would most likely have gone out and demonstrated that they suffered from sleep apnea, been properly treated and eventually reinstated. And they would have called further attention to the fact of fatigue in the cockpit, distant duty bases and deadhead flying to their bases etc.

Many pilots have to commute to their duty bases and actually have to start their day many hours before they arrive at their duty stations.

Asleep or distracted, the best tact is obviously for the crew to be as truthful as they can be. But I would have rather they had fallen asleep than have claimed to be distracted.

[DC-ATE]

Seems like many recent accidents focus on "commuting" pilots. Granted not every pilot can live near his/her home base, but most who commute choose to do so and it is their responsibility to be ready to fly their trip when scheduled. I'm talking scheduled pilots now. Reserve pilots have an even greater responsibility to be at or near the field when called if they choose to commute. Again...most pilots CHOOSE to commute.

I commuted for most of my career and only recall a couple of times when I had to "drop" the trip for not making it. That of course required a reserve to be called out which was unfair to him, but that's what reserves are for. Kinda boils down to: plan ahead.

[CaptainChaotic]

I think the climate of fear you live in as an airline pilot can lead to accidents.
We were very open with each other, would always let the other know of our alertness. Knowing a friend is in distress and needs you to pull through for them is worth 5 coffees. I'm not sure a passenger pilot would tell his copilot that he had a rough night and is going to battle to keep awake.

Like Dirty Harry used to say "A man has to know his limitations".

People need to know that pilots can fall asleep and procedures should be in place to stop any accidents when it happens, not fight the laws of nature by trying to select super humans as pilots.

As aircraft become more automated this problem is going to get a lot worse. IMO the simplest solution is for the computers to mix it up, data entry and operation is randomized. Altitude is not always the second entry, values have to be entered including their units of measurement. Sound and visual alerts begin with a random sound/light sequence then revert to normal values. The result should be that no two warnings/alerts ever sound/look the same because in real life no two warnings/alerts are the same as they occur at different moments in time. A human brain is hard wired to wake, using a limbic response, if it senses danger, danger is identified as an unusual or a known dangerous sound.

[DozyWannabe]

...data entry and operation is randomized. Altitude is not always the second entry, values have to be entered including their units of measurement.

Without wanting to sound overly blunt, I sincerely hope you're joking - mistaken FMS entries have caused far too many hull losses and near-misses over the years - the Cali 757, and the Indian and Air Inter A320s just for starters!

[CaptainChaotic]

Without wanting to sound overly blunt, I sincerely hope you're joking

If you know the system is random, then you wont make the mistake of assuming you know your current position in the sequence. Having to enter the units of measurement is the the backup.
The reason why so many errors happen is because they can't help but assume they know where they are in the data entry sequence. If you take away the ability to make that assumption then you solve the problem.