NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots
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Also understanding the CVR records only the last 30 minutes of flight
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I wonder if they just put the wrong airport in the FMGC?
Otherwise it seems completely bizarre that none of the crew, cabin crew, etc. had any idea that the clock was ticking and they were very late on arrival time. As for fuel, I wonder what they landed with. I suspect they had some extra fuel on board, very lucky for them or the news story could have been somewhat different.
If it was a "heated discussion" that caused them total distraction from even the most basic checks (such as aviate, navigate, communicate) then for sure I hope they get the book thrown at them.
But I suspect there is more to this story......
Otherwise it seems completely bizarre that none of the crew, cabin crew, etc. had any idea that the clock was ticking and they were very late on arrival time. As for fuel, I wonder what they landed with. I suspect they had some extra fuel on board, very lucky for them or the news story could have been somewhat different.
If it was a "heated discussion" that caused them total distraction from even the most basic checks (such as aviate, navigate, communicate) then for sure I hope they get the book thrown at them.
But I suspect there is more to this story......
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Northbeach
Thank you for a well thought-out response to those who would 'armchair quarterback' the reasoning for this incident. Folks, cool your jets-- the crew probably screwed up, but lets not put them in jail until we hear what actually happened. Sadly, this forum seems to have a lot of 'pros' who have noses well beyond six feet in the air...
Thank you for a well thought-out response to those who would 'armchair quarterback' the reasoning for this incident. Folks, cool your jets-- the crew probably screwed up, but lets not put them in jail until we hear what actually happened. Sadly, this forum seems to have a lot of 'pros' who have noses well beyond six feet in the air...
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Aphros
I suppose that we shouldn't laugh about this as the implications are pretty awful, but I heard the BBC report that the pilots were: "..involved in a serious discussion about safety..." Yeah, right.
Oh by the way, was there a cabin crew input....they must have wondered why they hadn't landed.
Oh by the way, was there a cabin crew input....they must have wondered why they hadn't landed.
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Well put, man in poland, there are some demonstrated positives here as today's technology has made times like these awfully comfy. Would something like this have been as likely to occur 50 years ago in the more demanding world of say a DC6/7?
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I suspect they had some extra fuel on board, very lucky for them or the news story could have been somewhat different.
IIRC, they landed about 18 minutes late, which would not have burned but half their reserves, since they were in cruise at high altitude. If the autopilot was in LNAV and the arrival and approach had been entered into the FMS, the airplane would have followed that path over the ground, but constrained by altitude. The last Missed Approach heading or hold would be the final path to follow. If the route to alternate had also been entered, that is another possibility for the path after the missed approach, if the discontinuity had been closed.
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Old Glass,
I'm impressed by your incredible knowledge of aviation incidents and accidents.
Somehow, I must have missed to see an equivalent comment of yours on a recent taxiway landing.
And, by the way, it's trimmer, but seen your (mental?) age, this is probably excusable)
Once again the Toulouse Tree Trimer makes the news.
Somehow, I must have missed to see an equivalent comment of yours on a recent taxiway landing.
And, by the way, it's trimmer, but seen your (mental?) age, this is probably excusable)
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Intruder,
Flightaware has the following for NW188:
Scheduled Dep: 2:35PM PDT
Scheduled Arr: 7:47PM CDT (3 hours 12 minutes)
Seven Day Running Average for this flight
Actual Departure 2:38PM PDT
Actual Arrival 7:50PM CDT
Oct 21 Flight
Actual Departure 3:00PM PDT
Actual Arrival: 8:54PM CDT
Quite sure that ATC would not have had them fly a loopy return if fuel on-board was becoming critical.
Flightaware has the following for NW188:
Scheduled Dep: 2:35PM PDT
Scheduled Arr: 7:47PM CDT (3 hours 12 minutes)
Seven Day Running Average for this flight
Actual Departure 2:38PM PDT
Actual Arrival 7:50PM CDT
Oct 21 Flight
Actual Departure 3:00PM PDT
Actual Arrival: 8:54PM CDT
Quite sure that ATC would not have had them fly a loopy return if fuel on-board was becoming critical.
More than just an ATCO
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Airbubba wrote
Yep, the hundreds of U.S. pilots defending Europe would have launched sooner.
No they wouldn't. It isn't the Crew's call. The decision is made by Air Defence. Maybe the staff at NORAD are spending too much time in the Donut Shop
Wow, what an airforce... takes more than 80minutes before being able to get airborne...
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Question from interested layperson;
Is this triggered by perceived crew inactivity, to guard against sleping crews?
Also does the Airbus have a "Pilot Response" message like some Boeings ?
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Airliner overshoots airport; controllers feared hijacking - CNN.com
Controllers asked other NW flights over Minnesota and Wisconsin to reach the NORDO aircraft on the last Denver ARTCC frequency that the pilots had communicated on. Eventually, this worked.
Controllers asked other NW flights over Minnesota and Wisconsin to reach the NORDO aircraft on the last Denver ARTCC frequency that the pilots had communicated on. Eventually, this worked.
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marchino61, they flew about 150 miles past MSP, but they were declared NORDO about long before MSP when they did not respond to Denver ARTCC attempt to handoff to MSP. One hour + 14 minutes.
I still think they would have had a better ultimate defense if they actually had fallen asleep... they would have eventually been shown to suffer from sleep apnea, and after suitable treatment been found fit for resumption of flying duties.
But the notion of zipping past your destination at flight level while arguing is too fanciful!
I still think they would have had a better ultimate defense if they actually had fallen asleep... they would have eventually been shown to suffer from sleep apnea, and after suitable treatment been found fit for resumption of flying duties.
But the notion of zipping past your destination at flight level while arguing is too fanciful!
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The last paragraph is interesting: (Though I fail to see why they need to have a "Photo Op" for this!)
PHOTO AVAILABILITY: FLIGHT RECORDERS FROM NORTHWEST FLIGHT 188 INCIDENT
The flight recorders from Northwest flight 188 that overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (MSP) will be available for television and still photography this afternoon between 2:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m. at National Transportation Safety Board headquarters.
WHEN: Friday, October 23, 2009
WHERE: NTSB Headquarters, 490 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., 6th floor, Washington, D.C.
This will be a photo availability only. No interviews will be conducted.
Camera crews need to report to the guard desk on the 6th floor to be badged. The availability is for news media only and a photo ID will be required to be given to the guard to receive your badge. You will then be escorted to the room where the recorders are available.
The 30 minute solid-state Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) captured a portion of the flight that is being analyzed. No further information on this investigation is expected today by the NTSB.
The flight recorders from Northwest flight 188 that overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (MSP) will be available for television and still photography this afternoon between 2:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m. at National Transportation Safety Board headquarters.
WHEN: Friday, October 23, 2009
WHERE: NTSB Headquarters, 490 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., 6th floor, Washington, D.C.
This will be a photo availability only. No interviews will be conducted.
Camera crews need to report to the guard desk on the 6th floor to be badged. The availability is for news media only and a photo ID will be required to be given to the guard to receive your badge. You will then be escorted to the room where the recorders are available.
The 30 minute solid-state Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) captured a portion of the flight that is being analyzed. No further information on this investigation is expected today by the NTSB.
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While this COULD have been an accident of major proportions, it was NOT. There is no Earthly reason to release the CVR to the news media where it will get completely misconstrued.
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The 30 minute solid-state Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) captured a portion of the flight that is being analyzed.
From the preamble of the BUF crash CVR transcript:
Recorder Description
Per Federal regulation, CVRs record a minimum of the last 30 minutes of aircraft operation; this is accomplished by recording over the oldest audio data. When the CVR is deactivated or removed from the airplane, it retains only the most recent 30 minutes or 2 hours of CVR operation, depending on the CVR model. This model CVR, the Honeywell 6022 SSCVR 120, is a solid-state CVR that records 2 hours of digital cockpit audio. The recorded audio data is separated by the Honeywell download software into 2 sets of audio data files: a) a 2-channel recording containing the last 2 hours of recorded events and b) a 4-channel recording containing the last 30 minutes of recorded events. During the 2-hour portion of the recording, one channel contains audio information from the cockpit area microphone (CAM) and the other channel contains a mixture of two audio sources: the captain’s audio panel information and the first officer’s audio panel information. The 30-minute portion of the recording contains 4 channels of audio data; one channel for each flight crew, one channel for the CAM audio information, and a fourth channel available for interphone, public address, or flight deck jumpseat audio information.
Per Federal regulation, CVRs record a minimum of the last 30 minutes of aircraft operation; this is accomplished by recording over the oldest audio data. When the CVR is deactivated or removed from the airplane, it retains only the most recent 30 minutes or 2 hours of CVR operation, depending on the CVR model. This model CVR, the Honeywell 6022 SSCVR 120, is a solid-state CVR that records 2 hours of digital cockpit audio. The recorded audio data is separated by the Honeywell download software into 2 sets of audio data files: a) a 2-channel recording containing the last 2 hours of recorded events and b) a 4-channel recording containing the last 30 minutes of recorded events. During the 2-hour portion of the recording, one channel contains audio information from the cockpit area microphone (CAM) and the other channel contains a mixture of two audio sources: the captain’s audio panel information and the first officer’s audio panel information. The 30-minute portion of the recording contains 4 channels of audio data; one channel for each flight crew, one channel for the CAM audio information, and a fourth channel available for interphone, public address, or flight deck jumpseat audio information.
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AirBubba
Another news source confirming it was only a 30 minute CVR.
Only 30 Minutes of Audio on Flight 188 to MSP?
Only 30 Minutes of Audio on Flight 188 to MSP?
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benefit of the doubt
giving the pilots the benefit of the doubt:
MAYBE the radio freq change/handoff was blocked by another transmission or something else.
Maybe there was a good tail wind and they were moving right along.
Maybe they were arguing about a newly advertised airline policy...DUE to the MERGER!
Maybe they were tired from working a second job because they had lost 2/3rds of their pension and half of their pay?
So there they are, no radio calls...and not paying attention....aviate, navigate, communicate...and finally they come out of their stupor (hey maybe it was a bit hypoxic up there, or fumes or something) and manage a safe landing.
we all know that modern planes are a bit too automated...we shall see.
on the other side...
I've seen guys read books on how to build houses, or fill out forms for scholorships for their kids. There is sort of a highway hypnosis of the air...you have to concentrate sometimes.
And when you kept a paper chart handy...well, I just think that kept you in the loop better than the moving map.
over
MAYBE the radio freq change/handoff was blocked by another transmission or something else.
Maybe there was a good tail wind and they were moving right along.
Maybe they were arguing about a newly advertised airline policy...DUE to the MERGER!
Maybe they were tired from working a second job because they had lost 2/3rds of their pension and half of their pay?
So there they are, no radio calls...and not paying attention....aviate, navigate, communicate...and finally they come out of their stupor (hey maybe it was a bit hypoxic up there, or fumes or something) and manage a safe landing.
we all know that modern planes are a bit too automated...we shall see.
on the other side...
I've seen guys read books on how to build houses, or fill out forms for scholorships for their kids. There is sort of a highway hypnosis of the air...you have to concentrate sometimes.
And when you kept a paper chart handy...well, I just think that kept you in the loop better than the moving map.
over