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Crash at Sharjah airport

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Crash at Sharjah airport

Old 26th Oct 2009, 15:01
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CC the YouTube button requires you to take off the
Code:
http://www.youtube.com/
piece
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Old 26th Oct 2009, 15:10
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Thanks Rather.

It looks to me as if the tail has been damaged.

Engine cowling.- frame 00:16
Dark Cloud of falling Material- frame 00:29
Tail damage - frame 00:34 & 00:36
Crash. 0:39

I have checked the aircraft in a dozen different frames, and in each one the tail is not symmetrical, it's not angle as I have the wings as a reference.

I would stick my neck out and say the cowling at 16:00 is not a cowling or engine, it's too big, the aircraft is moving away from the camera, looking at the size of the AC in the shot then the size of the debris, the debris is too large to be an engine.

Anyone know how many seconds after take off on this runway before the ac will have cleared the runway ? AC is wheels up at 00:03 in this video, how many more seconds until it would be clear on runway ? Maybe the cowling hit the tail, so if they found the cowling on the runway, maybe that fell off before it came into camera.
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 01:06
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quote:

"... Pilots operating out of Sharjah and elsewhere in the UAE have been discussing the crash on an online forum... "

Meet the press here
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 04:24
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As a video and stills shooter, I'd advise caution in trying to "see" too much detail in that video - high image compression can lead to artifacts that distort things. I.E. I can't see much wrong with the tail outlines at the gross level of detail available.

The "falling mist" after the solid object falls is about 50/50 IMHO - could be an artifact, could be something real. Needs to be taken in context with other evidence.

There does appear to be a contrail of fuel/smoke/something from the area of the outboard left wing/#1 engine in frames/seconds :03-:05. That looks more like a real event. Tracks the aircraft movement, and is darker than and thicker than a similar faint exhaust trail off the right wing.
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 13:27
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I'd advise caution in trying to "see" too much detail in that video - high image compression can lead to artifacts that distort things. I.E. I can't see much wrong with the tail outlines at the gross level of detail available.
Yes, I myself enhanced the video(25 years in computer graphics), I didn't just zoom in, If you zoom in yourself with the original, you will see you get left with large blocks of pixels. I sampled a number of frames and worked out what produced the best results, then applied to the whole video. I could have done a lot better but each frame would have taken a few minutes, which would have been over 24 hours for the entire video. I understand how artefacts can be produced when working with compressed images, and in this case there are none that are misleading. I know because I did the math to enhance the image in the first place. I came to the conclusion the tail of the aircraft is damaged after checking a number of frames with the aircraft at different angles, in each case the stabiliser is missing or damaged.

If I get the time later, I will post the frames and the exact area.

Still keen to here from anyone who can tell me how many seconds after wheels up before the AC would be clear of the end of the runway.
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 17:07
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Still keen to here from anyone who can tell me how many seconds after wheels up before the AC would be clear of the end of the runway.
Presuming this was an advanced cowl aircraft (quite likely, but you never know), PanAmerican had data which, when used correctly, could supply this information, and I have a copy.
However, I would need the following info...
Aircraft weight at brakes release
Ambient temperature
EPR used for takeoff
Runway length
Airfield elevation
Flap selection (presumed 14, however some aircraft were 17 degrees)
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 20:12
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I agree that the falling object is too big for an engine cowl. The change in size of the object as it falls indicates a large panel such as a cargo door or section of wing. The shading behind the a/c as it takes off could easily be just another 'smokey' 707.

I too have enhanced the frames but I can see nothing conclusive in the tail area, I can however see in subsequent frames what appears to be a large missing area of the starboard forward mainplane. As the a/c passes through 90deg AOB the assymetry of the wings is quite marked.
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 20:43
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...through 90deg AOB the assymetry of the wings is quite marked.
Yup, appears to be as described.
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 21:11
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On the above video, I can see only the inboard right wing flap as the aircraft starts initial climb.

Last edited by daikilo; 27th Oct 2009 at 21:22. Reason: Reviewed original Youtube video
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 22:03
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The door to No1 hold would seem a likely culprit... improperly secured and detaching in the breeze taking out a portion of the starboard mainplane, although one might expect the damage to be confined to the inner wing forward edge.

The combi-cargo door is also a remote possibility as it is hinged almost at the apex of the airframe.... but to cross to the other side of the aircraft....unlikely. Or perhaps a monumental uncontained No1 engine failure?
Or perhaps good - old fashioned - structural failure of a poorly maintained airframe.

The key to the puzzle is identifying the fallen panel and matching the impact damage to an undamaged 707 leading edge mainplane/tail. If fact the authorities probable have the answer already.
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Old 27th Oct 2009, 22:18
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Unfortunately the best settings for each frame aren't the same, I am rendering a new video its at 12%, I have since noted that a large amount of debris seems to be falling after the large piece falls, If you expand the pixel range of the sky, you can pick out other objects continuing to fall which could support a missing cargo door.
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Old 28th Oct 2009, 00:44
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Large falling object at 00:14 - in this video you can see it twist as it falls.

Check symmetry of AC at 00:32 > 00:35
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Old 28th Oct 2009, 06:14
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Reason for cargo plane flipping?

My friend was playing golf that day and saw the aircraft heading towards him and his friend on the fairway, as well as the club house behind them. He is absolutely certain that the pilot manouvered the plane out of this path deliberately saving him and other civilians in the building behind him.
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Old 28th Oct 2009, 07:54
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More importantly, did your friend notice anything missing from the aircraft - vertical stab, portion of a wing, engine, unusual sounds, parts coming off...? Likely not as it happened too fast but asking anyway.

These aircraft take an enormous amount of sky to manoeuvre and there is only about 23 seconds between the last view of the a/c and the next view of it coming down - no time to do anything. I know your friend would like to think that the pilot manoeuvered the aircraft as described but frankly by the time he noticed the aircraft the crew were along for the ride.

Notwithstanding that, I wonder though, about the body angle when the a/c initially comes into view - it is pointed slightly "up", (pointed "left" actually), and the nose then drops. It makes me consider that the vertical stab and rudder were attached and working (crew giving max left rudder), but ultimately ineffective against the bank angle. Just pondering...

CaptainChaos;
First of all, very nice work on the video - much clearer.
Check symmetry of AC at 00:32 > 00:35
I think that is some kind of video interference or object in between the a/c and the camera - the wing appears "whole" just before impact. Can't tell if # 3 or 4 are still on the wing - to blurry even given the sharpening. I think one can just make out the vertical stab though.

Last edited by PJ2; 28th Oct 2009 at 08:04.
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Old 28th Oct 2009, 09:14
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My friend was playing golf that day and saw the aircraft heading towards him and his friend on the fairway, as well as the club house behind them. He is absolutely certain that the pilot manouvered the plane out of this path deliberately saving him and other civilians in the building behind him.
heroic, but does not makes too much sense to me.
If you have control of the aircraft, you would not drill it into sanddunes.
Eyewittness accounts do not have a clue what really was going on at the flightdeck and were later mostly proven inaccurate.
From the slide show it looks to me the crew have lost all options controlling their plane.
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Old 28th Oct 2009, 17:06
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By my rough calculations, whatever dettached from the plane did so around the 10th second from this last video starting point, probably 15 to 18 seconds or so after TO. Too low and slow to recover?
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Old 29th Oct 2009, 03:31
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Detached part suspected to have been "located around the engine"
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Old 29th Oct 2009, 06:53
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Capt. C.
Very nice work on the re-edit. But, and I say this with all humility,,, the interesting part is NOT the smoke from engines 1 and 2,, it is,,to me,, the LACK of smoke from engines 3 and 4.
That "something fell off",, I have no doubt. But, friends, believe me when I say that I have knowledge of this aircraft (B-707) and see spooky similar, if reversed, similarities in this video.

YUKLA 27

My friends Skip,Bart,Mark,Chuck,B.K.,Steve, and 18 other warriors went down after the 707-320B (E-3B AWACS) they were flying lost #2 just prior to v1, and #1 between v1 and vR,, two engines out between v1 and v2,,, the left wing went down and NOTHING was going to bring it back up.

I got really tired of going to my friends funerals.

Looking at this video,, something bad happened to this bird, but it happened on the right,, the aircraft fell off to the right. The right motors not smoking (a JT-3 not smoking at take-off power ????). The (sorry) very best trained 707 crews in the world could not keep a 707 from falling off to the left when #1 and #2 failed,,, and a crew with suspect training could keep one airborne after either #3 or #4 failed?? I've sat thru uncountable simulator sesions where well qualified co-pilots crashed after any ONE engine failed.
There is no good answer here, you feel bad for those lost, but the loss is for not if you can't learn from it..
There is NO,, repeat NO substitute for professionalism,, be it aircrew, maint, loading, ops, atc, etc, etc.
And, yes, I feel qualified to comment.
Cheers
-- Heracles
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Old 29th Oct 2009, 07:33
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Bird strike?

Just wondering if it may have been a bird strike that took out #3 or #4, or both.

Are birds prevalent at Sharjah?
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Old 29th Oct 2009, 13:55
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Birds are not generally a problem in this neck of the woods. I have seen about 5 in my 3 years here...... (although I am in dxb, I imagine the same in sharjah)
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