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Crash at Sharjah airport

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Crash at Sharjah airport

Old 22nd Oct 2009, 14:07
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Although off topic, I want to respond to the DC8 Wing Slots.
Both inb and outb Slots were operated by hydraulic actuators.
These actuators were connected to the Wing Slot Control valve situated on the RH Hydr manifold and commanded by the Flap follow up cable. No pneumatics involved. More then eight degrees flaps opened the slots. Old memories....
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 16:08
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Thanks CATIIIBnoDH, it was along time ago. Don't know why pneumatics stuck in my mind.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 16:33
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This is very sad, however...the whole ageing cargo plane operation is what needs to be reviewed, technical issues one aspect, amazed any of these heaps get airbourne, overweight and climbing on the stick shaker is nothing new.. and no.. this is fact.. not rumour.. proper enforced regulation could help avoid these tragic events...
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 17:25
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Looking at this video clip from the SHJ TV (I belive this is SHJ TV), and assuming this is real, at time 00:38 of the video, you'll see something falling from the sky along the 3rd pole from the left. S.F.L.Y already mentioned it in the Middle East section, but I don't think it is an engine.
Loosing an aerodynamic piece of the aircraft on or after take off will not help the case...
That brings to mind what's going on around and whether some aircraft are really airworthy... This is no stone throwing. This has to be taken serious. This involves ground/air staff, management, Civ Airs, insurance companies, etc.. This lot needs to get serious about safety.
Well, for the time being, there are 6 lives lost and it could have been many more, had the aircraft hit a populated area. RIP guys!
Regret to say that in few days, this will be history and the bad practices will continue.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 17:57
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The sad reality here is that this aircraft should have been used to make tins cans for ASDA , Carrefour and Tesco years ago. I think we`ve just seen proof of the need for an age limit for old freighter aircraft in vivid detail . Combine this with poor maintenance , poor flight crew procedures and training , and we`ll have many more of these accidents.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 18:19
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Aircraft age is not a limiter, look at the number of DC3 and C46 still flying commercially and safely, and the fact that the B52 will be around 100 years old when finally retired.

Proper maintenance and proper operating procedures are the issue. If these are not up to standard then even new aircraft will crash.

Not a comment on the crash, just a response to a suggestion that aircraft age causes accidents, not the abuse of an aircraft through neglect.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 19:50
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It is pretty obvious thing about 707 is that you operating it either commercially OR safely. If you doing all things properly this aircraft is not viable commercially, and this is why this aircraft is not operated anywhere in "first" world countries for long time now. Military/governmental/VIP use is a different story.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 21:45
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I hate to see speculation from a video that go so far as to conclude.

Surely the facts of what pieces that might have fallen off and where are already known to the investigators. We should wait for on-scene comments here before extending our own speculations.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 23:49
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Proper maintenance and proper operating procedures are the issue. If these are not up to standard then even new aircraft will crash.
AF A330 over the south Atlantic, perhaps?
Throw stones in glass houses comes to mind.
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 00:11
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The sad reality here is that this aircraft should have been used to make tins cans for ASDA , Carrefour and Tesco years ago. I think we`ve just seen proof of the need for an age limit for old freighter aircraft in vivid detail .

Not so

The 707 got banned from European skies, (except for a/c registered in certain third world countries), for NOISE, nothing to do with the age of the aircraft at all, some of the older ones are stronger than stuff recently produced. The VC10, for example, was known as "The Iron Duck" in some circles and subject to inspection had an indefinite hull life.

Proper maintenance and proper operating procedures are the issue. If these are not up to standard then even new aircraft will crash.
So true.
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 08:36
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Folks,
Many early 707/720 were originally delivered with just two small slats between the engines ( BOAC 707-300, QF "138A",PanAm -321). Many were later retrofitted with full span leading edge devices, Kruger flaps inboard, slats outboard. This applied to the QF 707-138, also originally delivered with JT3 straight pipes, later modified to JT3-MC6 fans.

Not too many air motors on a 707, just hydraulic and electric.

All the ex-PanAm 707-321 I ever flew, from the original JT-4 powered, through to one of their last ever deliveries, a really beaut freighter with JT3D-7, all had air cycle machine air conditioning, T/C or bleed powered. Most 707 only had 2 T/C, some three, always 4 bleeds.

The only "707" I ever operated that had freon were ex-TWA 720. Air Nuigini started jet operations with one, leased from a mob of "interesting people" called Templewood Aviation, spent a year parked on the seawall at Mogadishu immediately before, the corrosion was something to behold. Many moons ago, Air Tanzania had a couple, range was a real problem, even DAR- Dubai was pushing it.

707s needed lots of tender loving care, and cubic $$$ for corrosion control, and that was thirty/forty years ago??

The last Sudan based 707 I saw ( a while ago in Jedda) looked pretty, until you got up close, amazing what Imron will stick to, my impression was I didn't want to walk under it, in case it fell on me. Sudan Airways very first 707 operations were wet leases by BMA, probably an ex-QF B707-338C.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 08:44
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Leadsled

Many early 707/720 were originally delivered with just two small slats between the engines ( BOAC 707-300, QF "138A",PanAm -321).
Out of interest it was the BOAC 707-436's (RR Conway engined versions) that had the two LE devices between the engines. The 707-336's (P&W JT3D-3B engined versions) had the full span LE slats/flaps.


Regards
Exeng
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 08:55
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exeng,
I believe you are correct, the -436 with Conways was otherwise more or less the same as the JT-4 PanAm aircraft, except for the DP Davies mods for the G-register, which has some truly amazing result.
How to complicate a relatively simple aeroplane!!
Actually, I always thought the -300s were a better handling aeroplane than the -320, including at height with the yaw dampers off, but I don't think I would be short of arguments on that one.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 09:33
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just a thought

On August 7, 1997, Fine Air flight 101, a Cargo DC-8-61F registration # N27UA, en route from Miami to Santo Domingo, in the Dominican Republic, suffered sudden movement of cargo materials in the aft cargo hold while on take off. The aircraft's nose rose steeply due to the sudden uneven weight distribution caused by shifting boxes of denim material that had not been securely fastened.
The pilots, departing out of the former Runway 27R (now 26L) attempted to recover but the aircraft stalled and crashed onto a field adjacent the Miami City Rail Yard less than a mile from the airport.
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 10:02
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I was not a joke, UAE really had a NOTAM reminding operators not to depart overweight. It came after a some hairy departures courtesy of our East European colleagues, followed by a very slow climb to a very low two engine service ceiling (on a twin aircraft) after departure.
I'm not saying this is what our Sudanese friends did, but it was my first thought when I heard of this accident. It doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 10:19
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Taken in KRT earlier this year
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 10:40
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"interesting people" called Templewood Aviation
This is the story I was told:

When Mugabe started to get stroppy he impounded Templewoods 707s that were operating on a lease for (Air Rhodesia?) Air Zimbabwe and claimed them as fair restitution for all the "extortion and abuse" of Zimbabwe by Britain. The aircraft were repainted and re registered and continued to fly for Air Zim.

Sounds a bit 'tall' but was a Templewood man that told me!
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 11:05
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Meanwhile, back on thread.....

Any rumours as to what the falling debris may have been?

Am particularly interested as I operated many hours on that aircraft in Nile Safaris days. A sad end to the life of what was originally a fine bird.

Ex LH, and was in fine condition when I was there. Took her on some fascinating trips and she looked after us well.

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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 12:29
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Yes. Surely, if something fell from the aircraft, it must have been located by now. From the video clip it must have been something heavy to drop like that. A flap, an aileron or an elevator would have 'fluttered' wouldn't it?
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 12:33
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I think it was an engine, as it seemed to me to have come down at a great rate of knots. Anything aerodynamic e.g. a piece of control surface, primary or secondary, would have been much slower.

If it was an engine, it should not have caused loss of control.
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