BA to get 30% rise
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<<BA really need to get their finger out this year and give us what we deserve.
Lets hope LCG starts his new job by trying to increase morale!!!>>.....he will! Beatings will continue until morale improves! The only thing we can do is ensure action is voted for, and get our heads down and take action, and ignore TV reports, adverse journalism and these nasty nosy 'opinion about everything in aviation' non pilot types, who are seemingly adamant that we should not be earning more than they are. Ignore everybody! I'm not sure the value of having so many non pilots here commenting on what they think we earn and what they think we should earn! All I know is I am fed up with everybody else earning more for the same job!
Lets hope LCG starts his new job by trying to increase morale!!!>>.....he will! Beatings will continue until morale improves! The only thing we can do is ensure action is voted for, and get our heads down and take action, and ignore TV reports, adverse journalism and these nasty nosy 'opinion about everything in aviation' non pilot types, who are seemingly adamant that we should not be earning more than they are. Ignore everybody! I'm not sure the value of having so many non pilots here commenting on what they think we earn and what they think we should earn! All I know is I am fed up with everybody else earning more for the same job!
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B.A.'s propaganda efforts are moving into a higher gear as indicated by 'loaded1'. This week's British Airways staff newspaper has a full page dedicated to an article reproduced from the Sunday Times.
The obvious intent is to give the impression of how fantastically well off Flight Crew are. I quote, < That now makes it possible that Delta's pilots may reject the 23% to 39% rise on offer when it comes to the vote next month. After all, one cannot expect a pilot to get along on $300,000 a year. >
That would equate to Delta's top paid pilots (I presume) being offered about £214,000 P.A. for carrying passengers who pay the same for their tickets as ours do.
The article says that fares will have to rise by 10% to offset the wage hikes. Oh deary me no, how will the consumer cope; after all fares have consistently reduced for decades. Maybe the consumer will just have to pay a bit more, like they have to for virtually every other commodity. Another quote from the article says < And in real terms average fares have fallen by 40%, (since 1978) with people who have the flexibility as to travel dates and times getting the greatest benefits. >
The article also says, < All this makes the profits performance of B.A. even more remarkable than it's quadrupling of profits in 2000 at first seems. > No surprise here is there, if your wage bill for Flight Crew, Maintenance Engineers and a lot of other groups of staff is about half that of your competitors then one would expect a better financial performance.
Another quote, < the airlines Chief Executive, R.E., deployed his attractive, outgoing personality to get his ground staff and in-flight crews to abandon their grievances and petulance and once again concentrate on customer service. > So we have abandoned our grievances have we, petulant lot that we are. I don't think so.
Regards
Exeng
The obvious intent is to give the impression of how fantastically well off Flight Crew are. I quote, < That now makes it possible that Delta's pilots may reject the 23% to 39% rise on offer when it comes to the vote next month. After all, one cannot expect a pilot to get along on $300,000 a year. >
That would equate to Delta's top paid pilots (I presume) being offered about £214,000 P.A. for carrying passengers who pay the same for their tickets as ours do.
The article says that fares will have to rise by 10% to offset the wage hikes. Oh deary me no, how will the consumer cope; after all fares have consistently reduced for decades. Maybe the consumer will just have to pay a bit more, like they have to for virtually every other commodity. Another quote from the article says < And in real terms average fares have fallen by 40%, (since 1978) with people who have the flexibility as to travel dates and times getting the greatest benefits. >
The article also says, < All this makes the profits performance of B.A. even more remarkable than it's quadrupling of profits in 2000 at first seems. > No surprise here is there, if your wage bill for Flight Crew, Maintenance Engineers and a lot of other groups of staff is about half that of your competitors then one would expect a better financial performance.
Another quote, < the airlines Chief Executive, R.E., deployed his attractive, outgoing personality to get his ground staff and in-flight crews to abandon their grievances and petulance and once again concentrate on customer service. > So we have abandoned our grievances have we, petulant lot that we are. I don't think so.
Regards
Exeng
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I completely agree with the last few posts. Well said everybody!
This weeks BA News caused my blood to boil. BA has declared war against us by reproducing Irwin Stelzer's recent Sunday Times article. Just a few points from the article:
1). "Lufthansa pilots, unhappy with an offer of a mere 18% wage increase"
FACT: Lufty pilots took a 20% pay cut to help out the airline during a difficult time.
FACT: BA pilots took a 5% pay cut for the same reason.
FACT: Neither pilot group has had these cuts restored during the profitable years since.
FACT: 18% over 4 years will still leave Lufty pilots earning 50% less than US pilots.
2). "After all, one cannot expect a pilot to get along on $300,000 a year".
FACT: Even before the recent large pay settlements, pilots at US majors earned far more than those of us in Europe.
FACT: Nobody at BA earns anywhere near $300,000 a year. Infact, the highest paid most senior BA Captains, even Base Training Captains, earn the same or less than a UAL F/O with 5 years seniority ie. $170,000 or £125,000.
FACT: The average pay of an EOG 737 crew is far less than a 737 crew from Ryanair, Easy or Go.
FACT: BA has about 1000 pilots operating a fleet of 57 747-400s. UAL has 1800 pilots operating a fleet of 44 747-400s. You could say that, at BA, we work twice as hard for half the money!
FACT: Every month between 150 to 300 747-400 pilots at BA are in danger of exceeding the JAR 900 hours per year flying limit.
4). Various pro-Roderick Eddington comments, which I can't even be bothered to re-read in case I throw up.
FACT: Ask any Cathay pilot or employee what they think of Eddington.
FACT: Ask any Ansett pilot or employee what they think of Eddington.
FACT: Ask Rod what he thinks of pilots - "million dollar morons".
FACT: Eddington is due a £1,000,000 bonus if he returns BA to profitability within 2 years. This explains his low key approach so far at BA. Wait for next year!!!
We are now in a situation where BA is actively stirring up the "green-eyed monster" against its pilot force. Management only see our cost, not how much we save the company. What value has been put on the heroic actions of Capt. Bill Hagan and his crew (re: NBO)?
We must aggressively persue a massive pay claim and not be part of a company pay deal.
Balpa should be far more proactive. Its time to start putting out some pro-pilot propaganda.
Unfortunately, our true value will only be seen when we walk off the job and flights are cancelled. After 2 weeks, Flt Ops would implode as people go out of recency, etc. A month long strike would take 6 months to recover from. It would cost BA £100s of millions. A professional pilot is not a charity - show us the money!!!
This weeks BA News caused my blood to boil. BA has declared war against us by reproducing Irwin Stelzer's recent Sunday Times article. Just a few points from the article:
1). "Lufthansa pilots, unhappy with an offer of a mere 18% wage increase"
FACT: Lufty pilots took a 20% pay cut to help out the airline during a difficult time.
FACT: BA pilots took a 5% pay cut for the same reason.
FACT: Neither pilot group has had these cuts restored during the profitable years since.
FACT: 18% over 4 years will still leave Lufty pilots earning 50% less than US pilots.
2). "After all, one cannot expect a pilot to get along on $300,000 a year".
FACT: Even before the recent large pay settlements, pilots at US majors earned far more than those of us in Europe.
FACT: Nobody at BA earns anywhere near $300,000 a year. Infact, the highest paid most senior BA Captains, even Base Training Captains, earn the same or less than a UAL F/O with 5 years seniority ie. $170,000 or £125,000.
FACT: The average pay of an EOG 737 crew is far less than a 737 crew from Ryanair, Easy or Go.
FACT: BA has about 1000 pilots operating a fleet of 57 747-400s. UAL has 1800 pilots operating a fleet of 44 747-400s. You could say that, at BA, we work twice as hard for half the money!
FACT: Every month between 150 to 300 747-400 pilots at BA are in danger of exceeding the JAR 900 hours per year flying limit.
4). Various pro-Roderick Eddington comments, which I can't even be bothered to re-read in case I throw up.
FACT: Ask any Cathay pilot or employee what they think of Eddington.
FACT: Ask any Ansett pilot or employee what they think of Eddington.
FACT: Ask Rod what he thinks of pilots - "million dollar morons".
FACT: Eddington is due a £1,000,000 bonus if he returns BA to profitability within 2 years. This explains his low key approach so far at BA. Wait for next year!!!
We are now in a situation where BA is actively stirring up the "green-eyed monster" against its pilot force. Management only see our cost, not how much we save the company. What value has been put on the heroic actions of Capt. Bill Hagan and his crew (re: NBO)?
We must aggressively persue a massive pay claim and not be part of a company pay deal.
Balpa should be far more proactive. Its time to start putting out some pro-pilot propaganda.
Unfortunately, our true value will only be seen when we walk off the job and flights are cancelled. After 2 weeks, Flt Ops would implode as people go out of recency, etc. A month long strike would take 6 months to recover from. It would cost BA £100s of millions. A professional pilot is not a charity - show us the money!!!
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Have BALPA get in touch with VC immediatly so they know what to do and what NOT to do to.
Be prepared to have sh@t thrown in your face from places you wouldn´t even expect.
(On the other hand, we´ve all almost gotten used to that, haven´t we?)
Join your union and get others to join!
Get your personal networks up and running!
Get all those "artists" to get the big picture!
Get your email addresses and cell-phone #s to your union!
Give BALPA feedback!
Be prepared to give explanations to everyone including your mailman!
Get involved and expect to get clobbered!
Be prepared to act as one unity (there´s safety in numbers)!
Have patience and stamina once you get going.
Good luck!
Be prepared to have sh@t thrown in your face from places you wouldn´t even expect.
(On the other hand, we´ve all almost gotten used to that, haven´t we?)
Join your union and get others to join!
Get your personal networks up and running!
Get all those "artists" to get the big picture!
Get your email addresses and cell-phone #s to your union!
Give BALPA feedback!
Be prepared to give explanations to everyone including your mailman!
Get involved and expect to get clobbered!
Be prepared to act as one unity (there´s safety in numbers)!
Have patience and stamina once you get going.
Good luck!
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Hotwings,
I think everyone that posts on this forum is in agreement with your FACTS (your caps
)
What we need is Balpa AND US to present a united front. Wonderbus has given us an inkling into how it is being done across the way at Luftie. Time will tell whether it has worked.
One things for sure, if we don't stand together on this then we will get totally screwed again by BA.
ATB,
Underdog
ps I know Balpa monitors this forum and our reps. do actually put a lot of effort in. But mark our words - we will not stand for another backdoor pay cut!!
I think everyone that posts on this forum is in agreement with your FACTS (your caps
)What we need is Balpa AND US to present a united front. Wonderbus has given us an inkling into how it is being done across the way at Luftie. Time will tell whether it has worked.
One things for sure, if we don't stand together on this then we will get totally screwed again by BA.
ATB,
Underdogps I know Balpa monitors this forum and our reps. do actually put a lot of effort in. But mark our words - we will not stand for another backdoor pay cut!!
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This is good stuff! Keep the topic going at briefing etc, get as many as possible firmly 'on message' (it worked for the grinning jackanapes) and when BALPA hit 'em with the claim, we'll all stand together.
A 30% rise in my basic would put me on a par with many charter F/Os with same seniority. 50% would be more like it.
A 30% rise in my basic would put me on a par with many charter F/Os with same seniority. 50% would be more like it.
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Hot Wings,
Good one! I can hardly wait. But you will get all the 'non qualified, but can't wait to comment' prats on this forum chirping in. My own feeling is we can't even hope to win public opinion. I won't be explaining to the mailman- more like 'mind your own business!'. We must do this with our heads down and with gritted teeth- I remember last time we nearly did it- the newspaper/TV comment was merciless and completely biased against us.
Good one! I can hardly wait. But you will get all the 'non qualified, but can't wait to comment' prats on this forum chirping in. My own feeling is we can't even hope to win public opinion. I won't be explaining to the mailman- more like 'mind your own business!'. We must do this with our heads down and with gritted teeth- I remember last time we nearly did it- the newspaper/TV comment was merciless and completely biased against us.
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Whatever you do do not reveal your tactics on an open forum like this and telegraph your intentions.
Ignore the usual "glorified bus driver" drivel and other personal slights. Do not engage in childish name calling and personal abuse.
Make sure that you do not fraternise or socialise with management as they use these occasions for intelligence purposes. This is especially true for your union representatives. There is good reason to believe that there were too many "convivial" social occasions between AFAP reps and management in the Australian dispute resulting in some indiscreet "loose tongues" revealing useful insights to management.
Cathay pilots seem to have realised this at last. Apparently it is customary to frequent the same venue as management on off duty social occasions....Keep away! ...Treat them like lepers... Go somewhere else.
Do not respond to "surveys" of any kind, especially company initiated ones, because they will be used to your disadvantage.
You will be wasting your time trying to get the Media on side.
And lastly be prepared to negotiate realistically.
Ignore the usual "glorified bus driver" drivel and other personal slights. Do not engage in childish name calling and personal abuse.
Make sure that you do not fraternise or socialise with management as they use these occasions for intelligence purposes. This is especially true for your union representatives. There is good reason to believe that there were too many "convivial" social occasions between AFAP reps and management in the Australian dispute resulting in some indiscreet "loose tongues" revealing useful insights to management.
Cathay pilots seem to have realised this at last. Apparently it is customary to frequent the same venue as management on off duty social occasions....Keep away! ...Treat them like lepers... Go somewhere else.
Do not respond to "surveys" of any kind, especially company initiated ones, because they will be used to your disadvantage.
You will be wasting your time trying to get the Media on side.
And lastly be prepared to negotiate realistically.
Guest
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Vicar,
Thank you for your very constructive advice. Forums such as these are an excellent means of sharing ideas and intentions however the tactics leading to the execution of industrial action will remain, hopefully, very private.
I agree entirely that we will be wasting our time trying to get the media on our side; it never has happened and it never will. There will be intimidation but I'm certain that most of my colleagues have the strength to resist it.
Regards
Exeng
Thank you for your very constructive advice. Forums such as these are an excellent means of sharing ideas and intentions however the tactics leading to the execution of industrial action will remain, hopefully, very private.
I agree entirely that we will be wasting our time trying to get the media on our side; it never has happened and it never will. There will be intimidation but I'm certain that most of my colleagues have the strength to resist it.
Regards
Exeng
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The one thing that BALPA have to start doing is putting out some positive spin that is pro pilot. We may not win against the media, but in the US, ALPA has run ads about the responsibility and professionalism of pilots on TV, and newspaper ads about upcoming strikes warning customers and allowing them to chose another airline to avoid being inconvenienced. Time to start acting like a really professional union.
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Go for it guys. The best of luck. I belong to BRAL, or more accurately, BA CitiExpress. We see our purchase as a means of introducing an effective 'B' scale to BA to eventually screw you main line guys down even further. Most of us are quite happy being regional for the lifestyle, although that has changed a lot over the last two years. We hope to follow your efforts and achieve some sort of decent rise ourselves, but I think its very important BALPA use an inclusive tactic, or we may be used to take more and more BAR work to lower overheads there, and be used as the fodder for more Sunday Times articles.
We are only now just becoming BALPA, we are expecting to be able to negotiate with management now, instead of being ruled by diktat (and our Ops people have to be experienced to be believed!!!!!)
I think it would be in ALL our interests to cooperate on this one. BA mainline is the benchmark (or was) of the UK Airline industry. If BA don't stay ahead, we all suffer. Get Chris Darke off his well paid ass, and get something done.
We are only now just becoming BALPA, we are expecting to be able to negotiate with management now, instead of being ruled by diktat (and our Ops people have to be experienced to be believed!!!!!)
I think it would be in ALL our interests to cooperate on this one. BA mainline is the benchmark (or was) of the UK Airline industry. If BA don't stay ahead, we all suffer. Get Chris Darke off his well paid ass, and get something done.
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bunk exceeder - if only Chris Darke would get off his a**e and initiate your excellent suggestions.
We can learn a great deal from our US colleagues, if we can put aside our usual British arrogance and superiority. What counts is the net figure on your pay statement and in this respect we are clearly inferior. Its time to do something about it!
We can learn a great deal from our US colleagues, if we can put aside our usual British arrogance and superiority. What counts is the net figure on your pay statement and in this respect we are clearly inferior. Its time to do something about it!
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I've only just seen the Stelzer article in the firelighter and came online to find everything I wanted to say already said by Notso, Loaded, Hotwings etc. It made me puke when I read it first time round in the Sunday Times and now it's in our own company paper. Sheer brilliance. What a great way to motivate those of us who needed it into going for a meaningful i.e. 30% plus, pay raise. What a bunch of plonkers they are. Roll on the ballot.
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Union action in this country has been non existent since the miners were broken (unless you can remind me of anything i've missed!). Since then you were made to feel like a social leper if you actually decided to stand your ground. I'm not defending the actions of the miners, I'm merely pointing out that union's evolved for a reason and perhaps we are facing a scenario in our industry where we must rediscover their worth. When we ditched the coal industry there was an alternative non union source of energy - nuclear power.
However, here are we as pilots facing a boom in air travel with the potential for lots of lovely money to be made. With the last 15-20 years dominated by bean stealing accountancy practices re: training overheads coupled with a retirement bulge and a dwindling military who is carrying the big stick?
The real currency over the next decade will be experienced jet pilots. It is time to re-assert our position and if that means aeroplanes sitting on the ground then so be it. A few thousand millions of pounds of real estate sitting on the ground earning no interest let alone profit is a real double whammy.
PS: I nearly forgot to say how nausiating I find Stelzer. I note that he publishes his e-mail address and I have subsequently fired off a bolt of vitriol! It would be nice if everyone else followed suit.
[This message has been edited by High Volt (edited 09 June 2001).]
However, here are we as pilots facing a boom in air travel with the potential for lots of lovely money to be made. With the last 15-20 years dominated by bean stealing accountancy practices re: training overheads coupled with a retirement bulge and a dwindling military who is carrying the big stick?
The real currency over the next decade will be experienced jet pilots. It is time to re-assert our position and if that means aeroplanes sitting on the ground then so be it. A few thousand millions of pounds of real estate sitting on the ground earning no interest let alone profit is a real double whammy.
PS: I nearly forgot to say how nausiating I find Stelzer. I note that he publishes his e-mail address and I have subsequently fired off a bolt of vitriol! It would be nice if everyone else followed suit.
[This message has been edited by High Volt (edited 09 June 2001).]
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Yup, Stelzer is a right wing idealogue who makes Ghengis Khan look like a proverbial Sunday School teacher. He is also very selective in his use of facts. The creator of airline deregulation in the States is on record as saying that had he forseen the outcome, (the Lorenzo/Icahan years), he would not have reccomended it. Not a lot of people know that, so good old Irwin S just quotes the bits he likes to give his jaundiced views some bogus credibility.
I agree wholeheartedly with the email tactic: give the little chap something to think about. Regular readers of the Sunday Times business pages will know that he fires off the "lazy pilots are greedy and overpaid" broadside on a fairly regular basis. The irrational and personal tone he uses makes me think that he may have either not been selected or failed in flight training somewhere along the line.
Can't wait to see what he comes up with if BALPA make their move later this year.
I agree wholeheartedly with the email tactic: give the little chap something to think about. Regular readers of the Sunday Times business pages will know that he fires off the "lazy pilots are greedy and overpaid" broadside on a fairly regular basis. The irrational and personal tone he uses makes me think that he may have either not been selected or failed in flight training somewhere along the line.
Can't wait to see what he comes up with if BALPA make their move later this year.
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I just thought I'd throw my few pennies into the fray here. Someone mentioned earlier that they'd heard about people turning down job offers with BA. I've been with Uncle Rodney's Airline for about 6 years now. I am one of these lucky people with more than one passport, and so can confirm that I am seriously looking elsewhere for a company to fly for. Getting a job stateside is (based on my info from that side) possibly not too difficult for me, and may possibly extend to those with European licenses soon as well (although that's just rumour -- I can see it if the current and future forecast shortage continues).
Basically, the point is that unless BA get their act in gear, I'm outta here!. (and I don't think I'm alone in this one!)
Basically, the point is that unless BA get their act in gear, I'm outta here!. (and I don't think I'm alone in this one!)
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[email protected]
For those who wish to write!
[This message has been edited by High Volt (edited 10 June 2001).]
For those who wish to write!
[This message has been edited by High Volt (edited 10 June 2001).]