Jet Airways Pilots Strike
Southwest Airlines in the USA consistantly ranks at the top of travelers surveys and has been profitable over the last 5 airline boom bust cycles. It is also fully unionised. It seems to me the only difference between Southwest and all the other US airlines , which are universally basket cases, ultimately has nothing to do with pilot unions. It is all about the quality, or lack there of, of the management. I think it is also intersting to note that Southwest has the highest paid narrow body pilots in the USA. Gee who would have thunk it....Stable smart management that knows what they are doing operationally, thinks in the long term, and understands the value of takeing care of their employees = long term success.
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Originally Posted by nada1234
.....Jet started actively hiring expats at the cost of local talent who had more than adequate experience.....
Why, given that expats are generally more expensive, would a company do this, particularly in the current climate? If a local pilot was capable of doing the job what would be the point apart from being able to ditch the expat more easily should the need arise?
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The Way Forward
G'Day Big Pistons Forever!
As an old handler of Rolls Royce Griffons, Bristol Hercules and Wright Cyclones, I love your monicker. Before I am labelled a Luddite, I have also spent many a carefree hour flying Pratts and Trents. "You can't feather a hole!"
"Stable smart management that knows what they are doing operationally, thinks in the long term, and understands the value of takeing care of their employees = long term success."
Mate, you have hit it on the head. The 'Bean Counters' who cannot see further than the next six month profit forecast; the 'Career Management' who swallow the Bean Counters' ineptitude and, worst of all, the Training Departments who have allowed the 200 hour prima donnae into our cockpits, they all have a lot to answer for.
All power to South West Airlines. Others should follow their exemplary record, however, not in Asia I feel.
Neppie
As an old handler of Rolls Royce Griffons, Bristol Hercules and Wright Cyclones, I love your monicker. Before I am labelled a Luddite, I have also spent many a carefree hour flying Pratts and Trents. "You can't feather a hole!"
"Stable smart management that knows what they are doing operationally, thinks in the long term, and understands the value of takeing care of their employees = long term success."
Mate, you have hit it on the head. The 'Bean Counters' who cannot see further than the next six month profit forecast; the 'Career Management' who swallow the Bean Counters' ineptitude and, worst of all, the Training Departments who have allowed the 200 hour prima donnae into our cockpits, they all have a lot to answer for.
All power to South West Airlines. Others should follow their exemplary record, however, not in Asia I feel.
Neppie
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Foreign Devils
The Expats were employed in the absense of any local talent or experience.
Jet's 777 operation has been built on the expertise of some 120 hugely experienced Expat pilots from many of the world's most prestigious airlines. Locals converting to the international operations have had to convert their thinking processes from 737 national short-haul ops into a much broader perspective. This has not been a rapid or easy transition.
It would appear that certain of the sacked individuals appeal to "nationalist" opinion in order to cover their own inadequacies and resentment of outside expertise.
Significantly, much of the senior airline management remains in non-national, ie expert, hands.
Jet's 777 operation has been built on the expertise of some 120 hugely experienced Expat pilots from many of the world's most prestigious airlines. Locals converting to the international operations have had to convert their thinking processes from 737 national short-haul ops into a much broader perspective. This has not been a rapid or easy transition.
It would appear that certain of the sacked individuals appeal to "nationalist" opinion in order to cover their own inadequacies and resentment of outside expertise.
Significantly, much of the senior airline management remains in non-national, ie expert, hands.
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As the NAG has stated, the issue immediately at hand isn't about expats, so why start into that?
FWIW, I was there and a part of the implementation of the widebody international fleet. There were many very qualified and capable Indian pilots, but there was also a need for the type and international experience brought by the expats. Both parts were equally necessary to the success of that expansion.
One other observation: As a pilot with a background in pilot/management relations I have never seen another company where the pilot group exerted as much ultimate power over the course of company affairs as was the case at Jet. Painting the situation as simply big bad company punishing poor little pilots for attempting to form a union is, I suspect, a gross underestimation of all the machinations that have gone before to bring the situation to a head.
I have great respect for my former Indian colleagues and wish them well, but I also have sympathy for the difficulties of managing an airline in India. I hope both parties quickly realize that their current course of action is quickly causing great damage to everyone's future prospects.
ELAC
FWIW, I was there and a part of the implementation of the widebody international fleet. There were many very qualified and capable Indian pilots, but there was also a need for the type and international experience brought by the expats. Both parts were equally necessary to the success of that expansion.
One other observation: As a pilot with a background in pilot/management relations I have never seen another company where the pilot group exerted as much ultimate power over the course of company affairs as was the case at Jet. Painting the situation as simply big bad company punishing poor little pilots for attempting to form a union is, I suspect, a gross underestimation of all the machinations that have gone before to bring the situation to a head.
I have great respect for my former Indian colleagues and wish them well, but I also have sympathy for the difficulties of managing an airline in India. I hope both parties quickly realize that their current course of action is quickly causing great damage to everyone's future prospects.
ELAC
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To all those who quote current timings to get expat pilots online in India , remember that the Australian dispute got round that by bringing in foreign hulls with their crews - problem solved .
There is however , a huge difference with this dispute . The Australian government in 1989 was desperate to get any aircraft in the air to support their then-booming tourism sector . I suspect the Indian Gov could give 2 hoots about Jets survival - more business for their problem child AI etc ?
Interesting times indeed.
Mr Goyals statement that 'the pilots are behaving like terrorists ' , especially after last Novembers business in Mumbai , shows that the man has scant regard for anybody . He does not deserve to win anything .
There is however , a huge difference with this dispute . The Australian government in 1989 was desperate to get any aircraft in the air to support their then-booming tourism sector . I suspect the Indian Gov could give 2 hoots about Jets survival - more business for their problem child AI etc ?
Interesting times indeed.
Mr Goyals statement that 'the pilots are behaving like terrorists ' , especially after last Novembers business in Mumbai , shows that the man has scant regard for anybody . He does not deserve to win anything .
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Not a Problem Child
I suspect the Indian Gov could give 2 hoots about Jets survival - more business for their problem child AI etc ?
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spedfast
Yes you are correct, the reinstatement of the sacked pilots is the demand for the NAG to instruct it's members to get back to work.
However the NAG have filed a petition in the Madras HC, against JA for employing foreign pilots.
Clearly the chairman of JA is no fool. He is aware of the number of Indians wanting promotion and who are out of work. He has employed the expats for a reason and their phasing out cannot happen overnight.
"The truth is out there."
Yes you are correct, the reinstatement of the sacked pilots is the demand for the NAG to instruct it's members to get back to work.
However the NAG have filed a petition in the Madras HC, against JA for employing foreign pilots.
Clearly the chairman of JA is no fool. He is aware of the number of Indians wanting promotion and who are out of work. He has employed the expats for a reason and their phasing out cannot happen overnight.
"The truth is out there."
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JET
A collective insanity is taking place. Some facts:
Jet Airways has established as a first truly world class airline in India. After so many awards the company deserves to be a reason of proud for India.
As well, it establised an international network on record time, with new routes, the best equipment, the best service and the most experienced pilots available in the world, with impeccable backgrounds from the top airlines.
Jet accomplished what for any other airline took many years. Very unfortunately, was hit by the perfect storm: almost immediately after start their new routes and spending multimillion dollars the oil went to USD 140 and soon thereafter the recession hit, mid 2008.
So, when all the investment and hard work was supposed to be paid back, the exact reverse occurred. Not even the smarter financial advisor could ever predicted it. Bottom line: here we have a company just struggling for survive.
It looks like it was entirely inappropriate timing to think about establishing an union right now! And, from some insighters info (I cannot confirm these facts), the guys involved on it have personnal issues with the management. One of them is a long haul captain that had been failed twice by expats TRE and had a nickname "the sleeper" for obvious reason.
I say again, I cannot confirm these facts, it comes from somebody closer to the facts.
So, what's the point in sacrificing an ailing airline(and of course, the passangers) on somebody's egos?
As for the expats, when the company decided to contract them it was just a business decision: the administration fortunately knows that experience is the most important asset in this industry. Otherwise it would be like KAL history back on the 80's: many disasters involving captains with less than 4000 hours. No matter what the wannabes with 200 hs on their pockets think about it...when it comes to smoking debris and headlines one have to understand the hard facts.
Recently there was a basic emergency poorly handled by a relatively unexperienced captain on the wide body fleet that could easily lead to a disaster. As well a number of unstabilized approaches due to lack of experience... I cannot confirm these facts, as it was passed to me by an internal source.
So it's time to get the heads cool, and negotiate the best course of action.
The present confrontation will have no winners.
Jet Airways has established as a first truly world class airline in India. After so many awards the company deserves to be a reason of proud for India.
As well, it establised an international network on record time, with new routes, the best equipment, the best service and the most experienced pilots available in the world, with impeccable backgrounds from the top airlines.
Jet accomplished what for any other airline took many years. Very unfortunately, was hit by the perfect storm: almost immediately after start their new routes and spending multimillion dollars the oil went to USD 140 and soon thereafter the recession hit, mid 2008.
So, when all the investment and hard work was supposed to be paid back, the exact reverse occurred. Not even the smarter financial advisor could ever predicted it. Bottom line: here we have a company just struggling for survive.
It looks like it was entirely inappropriate timing to think about establishing an union right now! And, from some insighters info (I cannot confirm these facts), the guys involved on it have personnal issues with the management. One of them is a long haul captain that had been failed twice by expats TRE and had a nickname "the sleeper" for obvious reason.
I say again, I cannot confirm these facts, it comes from somebody closer to the facts.
So, what's the point in sacrificing an ailing airline(and of course, the passangers) on somebody's egos?
As for the expats, when the company decided to contract them it was just a business decision: the administration fortunately knows that experience is the most important asset in this industry. Otherwise it would be like KAL history back on the 80's: many disasters involving captains with less than 4000 hours. No matter what the wannabes with 200 hs on their pockets think about it...when it comes to smoking debris and headlines one have to understand the hard facts.
Recently there was a basic emergency poorly handled by a relatively unexperienced captain on the wide body fleet that could easily lead to a disaster. As well a number of unstabilized approaches due to lack of experience... I cannot confirm these facts, as it was passed to me by an internal source.
So it's time to get the heads cool, and negotiate the best course of action.
The present confrontation will have no winners.
we rule NAG rules
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The commander has the supreme right to offload a perceived threat from his aircraft
watch the news , the victory will come
I hope not at a cost to the aviation industry. 7% percent of the workforce making up 40% of the payroll is how the media is describing the Pilots. I feel pilots are management! I have never heard of management forming a union. I appreciate that the only 2 demands are to have the union active and to re instate self styled politicians from within their ranks. Once this is done how long before they start wielding their muscles for salary hikes pensions and other such things as the AI union has done.
A question for the captains who are part of this, reference a thread on PPRUNE about an American Airlines captain landing in Miami and off loading a purser who he felt was insubordinate. A large amount of Pilots felt that it was correct and he perceived that threat and while a bit high handed as the commander of the flight he had the right. Well is not Goyal the commander of your airline? Does he not enjoy the same right to ask a person responsible for hundereds of lives and billions of investment dollars in a company to get off as he felt his actions jeopordized the operation of his aircraft percieved or not?
I for one would not want to put my life in the hands of a disgruntled employee weather it be a train, a plane or Mcdonalds.
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Jet Airways
Don"t posters on Pprune ever get tired of the "expat" bulls--t! If its not from Indians, its from Nigerians.
Please mods if the topic ever gets off the thread to racism or ex-pat nonsense kindly close it.
Please mods if the topic ever gets off the thread to racism or ex-pat nonsense kindly close it.
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Wannabe Flyer,
The 7%you talk about is the 7% that generates the revenue.There will be no AIRline without trained and qualified pilots.Would you tell you cardiac surgeon to take a paycut because he takes the lion's share of you bill but puts in the least effort (figuratively) during a by pass? After all , the nurses do all the preparation, a flunky removes the vein from the leg, someonelse opens up the chest and someone else closes it.
As to Naresh Goyal. He is not a commander of anything and is not responsible for anyone's lives. He is a multimillionaire and he made his millions on the backs of the very people he is now calling terrorists. Once a "baniya" always a baniya I guess.He should return to selling oil at the corner store.
Forming unions is not all about wages and benefits. Sometimes it can be about job security,respect and defense against exploitation.
How soon the Indians forget the exploitation of labour at the hands of the British (the shop keepers of the world) that pretty much beggared the country.
alt3.
The 7%you talk about is the 7% that generates the revenue.There will be no AIRline without trained and qualified pilots.Would you tell you cardiac surgeon to take a paycut because he takes the lion's share of you bill but puts in the least effort (figuratively) during a by pass? After all , the nurses do all the preparation, a flunky removes the vein from the leg, someonelse opens up the chest and someone else closes it.
As to Naresh Goyal. He is not a commander of anything and is not responsible for anyone's lives. He is a multimillionaire and he made his millions on the backs of the very people he is now calling terrorists. Once a "baniya" always a baniya I guess.He should return to selling oil at the corner store.
Forming unions is not all about wages and benefits. Sometimes it can be about job security,respect and defense against exploitation.
How soon the Indians forget the exploitation of labour at the hands of the British (the shop keepers of the world) that pretty much beggared the country.
alt3.
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If one is old enough to have been in the airline industry for a long time (especially in Asia) then one finds that the Indians have been just as expat-minded as anyone else.
I watched with some amusement in the late seventies as early retiree Captains from AI migrated toward a (then) small SE Asian airline.
The same folks then went on to tell the local First Officers that they would never amount to a hill of beans, and what the airline needed was more of those expats from the sub-contenent.
Fortunately, the local management watched this with little amusement, and couldn't get rid of the expat sub-contenent folks quick enough...in fact, the DC-10 contracts were structured so as to exclude this group entirely.
What goes around comes around....nearly always.
I watched with some amusement in the late seventies as early retiree Captains from AI migrated toward a (then) small SE Asian airline.
The same folks then went on to tell the local First Officers that they would never amount to a hill of beans, and what the airline needed was more of those expats from the sub-contenent.
Fortunately, the local management watched this with little amusement, and couldn't get rid of the expat sub-contenent folks quick enough...in fact, the DC-10 contracts were structured so as to exclude this group entirely.
What goes around comes around....nearly always.
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Frustration levels
Okay let me clear something about local pilots in india first, there are approx 40-50 of us on b737 with almost 10000 hrs of experience, dont you think it is our turn to fly the widebodies?????
Secondly regarding the the quote above "LOYAL CUSTOMERS and PAYING PASSENGERS", wouldnt the passengers like to know that they were flying with pilots whose frustration levels were peaking, and incidently these was showing in the DFDR recordings with a dramatic increase in hard landings and small incidents.
Thirdly, let me ask any american or european here, can we as indians come to your country and fly as senior captains ahead of all the other pilots flying there - obviously not. We have nothing against expats, its just that why put them ahead of people of our own country??/
And lastly India being a democratic country, we are exercising our "right to form an association" written under the constitution of india.
It is for these reasons it was decided to form a union and to get our demands met and make our airline a safer and more employee friendly airline.
Secondly regarding the the quote above "LOYAL CUSTOMERS and PAYING PASSENGERS", wouldnt the passengers like to know that they were flying with pilots whose frustration levels were peaking, and incidently these was showing in the DFDR recordings with a dramatic increase in hard landings and small incidents.
Thirdly, let me ask any american or european here, can we as indians come to your country and fly as senior captains ahead of all the other pilots flying there - obviously not. We have nothing against expats, its just that why put them ahead of people of our own country??/
And lastly India being a democratic country, we are exercising our "right to form an association" written under the constitution of india.
It is for these reasons it was decided to form a union and to get our demands met and make our airline a safer and more employee friendly airline.
Last edited by gabu1234; 12th Sep 2009 at 07:51.
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gabu1234
I really hope you and the other frustrated are calling in sick for the sake of the company and of your passengers. With that attitude you should not be left in charge of anything.
If you are not happy with your lot, then leave and dont try and take the company and a load of pax with you.
I really hope you and the other frustrated are calling in sick for the sake of the company and of your passengers. With that attitude you should not be left in charge of anything.
If you are not happy with your lot, then leave and dont try and take the company and a load of pax with you.
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Gabu 1234 seems to believe it's his turn to fly the wide-bodies.
In my observation, very few of the Indian pilots wish to be away from home for more than a few hours. After more than 2 years of operation, only a very few have crossed the North Atlantic or Pacific.
This is mostly a status matter so they can boast of flying large aeroplanes.
Of the pilots dismissed by Jet Airways, one captain (with a small c) spent most of his 777 flight deck time fast asleep having ensured that as many windows as possible were blocked out by charts and newspapers. His waking hours were not much more impressive, although they were spent impressing the cabin crew in the galley areas.
In my observation, very few of the Indian pilots wish to be away from home for more than a few hours. After more than 2 years of operation, only a very few have crossed the North Atlantic or Pacific.
This is mostly a status matter so they can boast of flying large aeroplanes.
Of the pilots dismissed by Jet Airways, one captain (with a small c) spent most of his 777 flight deck time fast asleep having ensured that as many windows as possible were blocked out by charts and newspapers. His waking hours were not much more impressive, although they were spent impressing the cabin crew in the galley areas.
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ALT 3
The 7%you talk about is the 7% that generates the revenue.
Sometimes it can be about job security,respect and defense against exploitation.
and makes you work 24/7....... Buddy if you want to understand what exploitation is look elsewhere. You always had the choice to move to other airlines when the going was good.
How soon the Indians forget the exploitation of labour at the hands of the British (the shop keepers of the world) that pretty much beggared the country.
He is a multimillionaire and he made his millions on the backs of the very people
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yaba daba Gabu
frustration levels were peaking, and incidently these was showing in the DFDR recordings with a dramatic increase in hard landings and small incidents.
Thirdly, let me ask any american or european here, can we as indians come to your country and fly as senior captains ahead of all the other pilots flying there
However the reason why Indians have not gotten the opportunity to do so is because the US already has an over supply of skilled (read many hours) pilots/FO etc etc and is churning them out faster than here in India. Therefore as per US law no shortage no outside employment. Take your grouse to the Indian labour laws as they make the rules which one has to play by! I can't speak for Europe.
And lastly India being a democratic country, we are exercising our "right to form an association" written under the constitution of india
It is for these reasons it was decided to form a union and to get our demands met and make our airline a safer and more employee friendly airline
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there are approx 40-50 of us on b737 with almost 10000 hrs of experience, dont you think it is our turn to fly the widebodies?????
