ryanair hires 30 junior pilots!!!!!
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First of all, I never said anything about the quality of the US system. However, you must admit there is a diference in approach between Europe and the US. The US point of view seems to be that experience makes a good pilot whereas in Europe knowledge and personality are more important.
Ofcourse the system one has been educated in plays a role in one's opinion about the other system. Some people think it is strange airlines employ very inexperienced pilots, others would be concerned if an airline would hire 'just about anyone who has been in an airplane long enough'.
Lets not judge one another on these kind of opinions. This is the way it works, and has worked for many many years now. Why think it's going to change any time soon?
Gonna
Ofcourse the system one has been educated in plays a role in one's opinion about the other system. Some people think it is strange airlines employ very inexperienced pilots, others would be concerned if an airline would hire 'just about anyone who has been in an airplane long enough'.
Lets not judge one another on these kind of opinions. This is the way it works, and has worked for many many years now. Why think it's going to change any time soon?
Gonna
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Basically it works like this:
If you have money you have a better chance of becoming an airline pilot regardless of your actual talents via the approved school route.
If you dont then its a tougher route, used to be via the states, where the flying is the mutts nuts and the standards high ( in general).
the arrogance of these 200 hr middle class dutch plonkers is astounding. they are confusing privilage, or wealth with ability.
During my uk coversion i learnt squat about flying, alot about decca navigation.(what bingo has to do with flyin I dont know).
A Little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in someone who has probably been bred with a superiority complex.
One way to level the playing field would be for the government to run flying training fir civvies with a common entrance allowing anyone to attempt entrance without penalising them for any educational history or social background.intelligence is intelligence regardless of state exams.
only then will the industry cease to be infused with arrogant over privilaged tossers, empowered by crm to blab their under qualified opions at inapropiate times.
(not slagging crm, just that aspect of it)
the old check and balance of the self improver has effectively been neutralised by the jaa requirements.
If the government will train you to be a doctor for nothing over 6 years why not a pilot for 18 months.
right i'm off back to bed and i can spell, i just cant type.
If you have money you have a better chance of becoming an airline pilot regardless of your actual talents via the approved school route.
If you dont then its a tougher route, used to be via the states, where the flying is the mutts nuts and the standards high ( in general).
the arrogance of these 200 hr middle class dutch plonkers is astounding. they are confusing privilage, or wealth with ability.
During my uk coversion i learnt squat about flying, alot about decca navigation.(what bingo has to do with flyin I dont know).
A Little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in someone who has probably been bred with a superiority complex.
One way to level the playing field would be for the government to run flying training fir civvies with a common entrance allowing anyone to attempt entrance without penalising them for any educational history or social background.intelligence is intelligence regardless of state exams.
only then will the industry cease to be infused with arrogant over privilaged tossers, empowered by crm to blab their under qualified opions at inapropiate times.
(not slagging crm, just that aspect of it)
the old check and balance of the self improver has effectively been neutralised by the jaa requirements.
If the government will train you to be a doctor for nothing over 6 years why not a pilot for 18 months.
right i'm off back to bed and i can spell, i just cant type.
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For your information: anyone who passes the selection procedure can start at KLS, regardless of the amount of money on their bank-account. The KLS ensures that anyone who passed can get a financing arrangement with the local bank, so it is not an education only for the rich.
Gonna
Gonna
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UK students can apply to any EU airline, but some may require national language skills.
The problem might be that far more non-British speak English than British speak other foreign languages (to a degree sufficient to integrate into a company).
Speaking the world's #1 language as a mother tongue has it's disadvantages, too.
We have lots of Dutch at our German-speaking company and they all speak fluent enough German for a (sophisticated) chat.
The problem might be that far more non-British speak English than British speak other foreign languages (to a degree sufficient to integrate into a company).
Speaking the world's #1 language as a mother tongue has it's disadvantages, too.
We have lots of Dutch at our German-speaking company and they all speak fluent enough German for a (sophisticated) chat.
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Seems to me that there's an awful lot of sour grapes on this thread! So what if Ryanair has a deal with a flight school to provide them with low time students? Does anyone criticise CSE or OATS for the same thing? Or is it because these guys are Dutch and you feel that they are taking your jobs? Sorry, lads (and ladies) - this is the EU and we now have free movement of labour - live with it! 
Far better to offer them congratulations on a job well done - and welcome them to Ryanair.
Far better to offer them congratulations on a job well done - and welcome them to Ryanair.
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Dear Guvnor,
A little Dutch aviation history :
For decades the KLS and NLS supplied the major Dutch airlines with pilots. The KLS generally delivered them to the KLM and the NLS mostly to Martinair and Transavia.
The people on the selection committees with these airlines were mostly KLS or NLS graduates, so this laid a base for a “I wash your back, if you wash mine.”
Until roughly the ‘80’s….
Along comes the ‘self improver,’ in Holland commonly referred to as a ‘free market’ pilot. These pilots were frustrated of being excluded from aviation, because they did not have the money for these flight schools, or did not know the right people (it used to help if daddy or an uncle is a captain 747…
to get accepted.
The duopoly of KLS and NLS is threatened and an effective campaign is launched to label these self improvers as “inferior” pilots, “poorly trained” in the USA. The people on the selection panels do their bit to protect the duopoly and raise the standards for pilots who have NOT been trained by the NLS or KLS. Self improvers need to have a minimum of 500 hours on a turbo prop, while KLS and NLS graduates get an interview with 150 hours on a piston single and some hours on a Seneca. This has caused many Dutch pilots to roam the world looking for work. As you can see in the above posts, there are a lot of self improver Dutch pilots flying all over Europe.
Now in the late 90’s and the beginning of this decade KLM, Martinair and the other airlines are almost not hiring. Strangely the few pilots they did hire, had a lot more experience then their ‘own’ bred pilots.
Gee, I wonder why ? 
So, because of the poor job market in the Netherlands, the KLS and NLS are dumping their graduates all over Europe and (again !) spoil the chances for any pilot who does not have the correct flight school name on his/her resume. Effectively they are doing to Europe what they have done for decades in Holland and it’s not a pretty picture ! On top of that the JAA is, as batty_boy correctly pointed out, encouraging this ! Fantastic !
So, to summarise, as a free market/self improver pilot, I (along with a LOT of my colleagues) are not happy to continuously get screwed by these flight schools. Yes, there ARE sour grapes ! Sour DUTCH grapes.
A little Dutch aviation history :
For decades the KLS and NLS supplied the major Dutch airlines with pilots. The KLS generally delivered them to the KLM and the NLS mostly to Martinair and Transavia.
The people on the selection committees with these airlines were mostly KLS or NLS graduates, so this laid a base for a “I wash your back, if you wash mine.”
Until roughly the ‘80’s….
Along comes the ‘self improver,’ in Holland commonly referred to as a ‘free market’ pilot. These pilots were frustrated of being excluded from aviation, because they did not have the money for these flight schools, or did not know the right people (it used to help if daddy or an uncle is a captain 747…
to get accepted. The duopoly of KLS and NLS is threatened and an effective campaign is launched to label these self improvers as “inferior” pilots, “poorly trained” in the USA. The people on the selection panels do their bit to protect the duopoly and raise the standards for pilots who have NOT been trained by the NLS or KLS. Self improvers need to have a minimum of 500 hours on a turbo prop, while KLS and NLS graduates get an interview with 150 hours on a piston single and some hours on a Seneca. This has caused many Dutch pilots to roam the world looking for work. As you can see in the above posts, there are a lot of self improver Dutch pilots flying all over Europe.
Now in the late 90’s and the beginning of this decade KLM, Martinair and the other airlines are almost not hiring. Strangely the few pilots they did hire, had a lot more experience then their ‘own’ bred pilots.
Gee, I wonder why ? So, because of the poor job market in the Netherlands, the KLS and NLS are dumping their graduates all over Europe and (again !) spoil the chances for any pilot who does not have the correct flight school name on his/her resume. Effectively they are doing to Europe what they have done for decades in Holland and it’s not a pretty picture ! On top of that the JAA is, as batty_boy correctly pointed out, encouraging this ! Fantastic !
So, to summarise, as a free market/self improver pilot, I (along with a LOT of my colleagues) are not happy to continuously get screwed by these flight schools. Yes, there ARE sour grapes ! Sour DUTCH grapes.
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I hear BA mainline, (757) have taken some Dutch 200 hour tt folk. Apparently they're doing fine, but BA recruitment seems somewhat idiosyncratic to take these ahead of some excellent applicants (& ejected hold pool swimmers) I know who have stacks of TP time but are not ZFT rated.
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First of all I would like to reply on my own reply in which I clearly state that the AIRLINES think that hours flown in Europe are better then those flown in the States. Since I did my training at the NLS and have flown all my hours in Holland (I have never been in Hilversum or Lelystad) and surrounding countries I don't have any idea how flying in the States is. And cavu what I'm trying to say here is only applicable to low time pilots.
Bokkerijer: It seems you are very frustrated about your own training. Couldn't get accepted by the NLS or KLS? But for the price I have paid, I could have 1000 hrs if I started at an other school in Holland. (Yes, I've paid every last cent myself, but because I was going to do the NLS, de bank would loan me the money. Why would they do that?) Since the KLM and daughters did not hire low time pilots for a long time I think that the "free market" pilots in Holland had an advantage above us. (The pilots KLM hired, did indeed have a lot of hours, becaus KLM was looking for captains and not F/O)
About languages: How many letters do you think I have received in which I was told that I have had a very good training and that when I spoke Finnish/Swedish/Spanish/Bahassa or Chinese I sure should apply again? But I have to agree with Alpine Flyer that everyone from outside the UK has the advantage of speaking a language other then English.
The major advantage by the NLS/KLS is that they have student counsils/directors who are trying to make contacts with airlines. They invite airlines to have a look at our syllabus so that they can see what kind of training whe have had. Untill now most airlines were very impressed by this syllabus. Now concerning Ryanair: Whe have the big advantage that the NLS is part of Schreiner. In this way the NLS can offer "type rated pilots". This is why Ryanair wants to give us a contract. So yes, the $25.000 is only applicable to NLS pilots.
So I'm sorry, eat the grape!
Bokkerijer: It seems you are very frustrated about your own training. Couldn't get accepted by the NLS or KLS? But for the price I have paid, I could have 1000 hrs if I started at an other school in Holland. (Yes, I've paid every last cent myself, but because I was going to do the NLS, de bank would loan me the money. Why would they do that?) Since the KLM and daughters did not hire low time pilots for a long time I think that the "free market" pilots in Holland had an advantage above us. (The pilots KLM hired, did indeed have a lot of hours, becaus KLM was looking for captains and not F/O)
About languages: How many letters do you think I have received in which I was told that I have had a very good training and that when I spoke Finnish/Swedish/Spanish/Bahassa or Chinese I sure should apply again? But I have to agree with Alpine Flyer that everyone from outside the UK has the advantage of speaking a language other then English.
The major advantage by the NLS/KLS is that they have student counsils/directors who are trying to make contacts with airlines. They invite airlines to have a look at our syllabus so that they can see what kind of training whe have had. Untill now most airlines were very impressed by this syllabus. Now concerning Ryanair: Whe have the big advantage that the NLS is part of Schreiner. In this way the NLS can offer "type rated pilots". This is why Ryanair wants to give us a contract. So yes, the $25.000 is only applicable to NLS pilots.
So I'm sorry, eat the grape!
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I agree with the Guv. It's a free world these days. Some say it's only for the rich, but you can get loans, like me, and therefore bury your own grave, like me. I am Dutch, live and work in the UK and am an OATS graduate, which training I funded with a loan. So I have big debts and no flying job. Sour? Well, at the end of the day, the companies in charge of flying and training make the deals that are best for them. And you gotta learn to live with that. And Bokkerijder, you've got a good job now down in Basel, dont you? (in case you dont remember, I was there at the selection but didnt get chosen) so what's the complaining all about? And a last point....handoek is spelled with 2 d's, like handdoek..............
Cheers!
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]
Cheers!
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]
[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]
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Zut Alors! What is this? Heaven forbid that Ryanair should start hiring people who they think are most suitable for the job rather than hiring someone waving a BALPA flag good and high. You'll be telling me next that they don't recognise seniority and have the audacity to promote talented guys rather than blokes whose "turn has come". And we can't have that now, can we?
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GAZA - Try and get a job in Turkey. The Turkish pilots union wont allow any non-turkish pilots to work for a turkish Airline based in Turkey. BUT Turkish pilots abound in RYANAIR!!!!!!! Is that Fair????????
Must be - its EU rules.
I wouldnt work for FR. Their business ethics are lower than a Rattle snakes belly in a cattle rut. Their employment ethics are "Meat Cleaver Management". All their management should be Keel hauled under the Titanic!!!!
Have a nice day in FR.
Must be - its EU rules.
I wouldnt work for FR. Their business ethics are lower than a Rattle snakes belly in a cattle rut. Their employment ethics are "Meat Cleaver Management". All their management should be Keel hauled under the Titanic!!!!
Have a nice day in FR.
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Look's like Ryanair will save themselves a bundle by getting people to pay for their own type rating. What next, you pay to sit in the RHS and get some hours like some of those naff schemes in the States?
Flying Headbut - yeah, very probably. 
WWW
WWW
Skytruck,
Unless things have changed recently or there is a special waiver, such that allows Icelandic companies into the UK market, then Ryanair would have to get around the EU Right Of Abode regulations for any non-EU pilots, the same way Companies have to for Americans. No major axe to grind here, just facts. I believe the IAA are fairly helpful doing this. My Company has some young Dutch First Officers, an EU country after all, and first rate they are too.
Unless things have changed recently or there is a special waiver, such that allows Icelandic companies into the UK market, then Ryanair would have to get around the EU Right Of Abode regulations for any non-EU pilots, the same way Companies have to for Americans. No major axe to grind here, just facts. I believe the IAA are fairly helpful doing this. My Company has some young Dutch First Officers, an EU country after all, and first rate they are too.
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Batty_boy says: "If you have money you have a better chance of becoming an airline pilot regardless of your actual talents via the approved school route.
If you dont then its a tougher route, used to be via the states, where the flying is the mutts nuts and the standards high ( in general).
the arrogance of these 200 hr middle class dutch plonkers is astounding. they are confusing privilage, or wealth with ability."
I'd like to comment on this statement, since I think it contains a lot of prejudices that exist about ab-initio students, which in my opinion are not justified.
When making the choice for a career as an airline pilot, several options exist. The most straightforward way to achieve this goal is to follow an ab-initio training program at a flight school with a known reputation, that has proven to deliver their graduated student directly to the airlines.
For me it was a very logical step to first try to be accepted in such a program. Unfortunately, nearly everybody pursuading a professional career in aviation in The Netherlands will therefore initially apply to schools like KLS, NLS and EPST. Because of the large number of applicants only those who pass the various selection stages are offered a position in the training program. Key factors in a succesfull application are motivation and ability and NOT, as batty_boy points out, how rich, wealthy and arrogant you are.
For KLS a large part of the selection is done by an independent testing office (Aeromedical Institute nowadays) and I think it is clear that they don't test you for a couple of days to find out how much money you have on your bank account or whether you are arrogant enough to make it as an airline pilot.
KLS has the policy that no matter what you're financial situation is, once you are accepted for training, the bank will provide you with a loan. In case of failure of the student during training or the drop-off of a student due to other (for example medical) reasons, a special fund will take over your debts. This provides the student with a much smaller financial risk and also guarantees that no matter how poor or rich you are, your chances of getting into the program are equal.
I also disagree with Bokkerijder who points out that being accepted by KLS or NLS has everything to do with 'knowing the right person at the right place'. I can tell you that from our class there is nobody that has a connection in anyway to the airlines that KLS supplies its students to. As I pointed out earlier, the selection is carried out by an independent institute and they are totally not interested in the abilities of your father or mother, brother or sister, who might all be very capable pilots. It is YOU that is the subject of the testing and YOU have to prove you have the ability and motivation to make it as an airline pilot.
Another point of disagreement with Bokkerijder concerns the fact that we 'look down upon the self-improver'. In fact most of us are very much aware of the amount of commitment it takes to walk that road. The experience you gain is invaluable and you will have encountered all the real-life probems and challenges facing a pilot, that we as ab-initio's will only face once we land our first job at an airline.
The difference between the self-improver and we as ab-initios at KLS, lies in my opinion in the fact, that from day 1 we are flying according to the procedures as used by KLM. This means that when flying light singles for your intial-training you are already working in the multi-crew-concept, fly in the airliner style and keeping up a very high pace of training. The last part of the training (after only 6 months from your first flight) is done on an Airbus A310 6 DOF full flight simulator. When you are finished you have been transformed into a KLM-robot. That's the reason we are hired by airlines like KLM and Lufthansa with only 200 flight hours and not because self-improvers would be less capable of doing that same job.
I don't think that the statistics can prove that airlines employing ab-initios are less safe to fly with than airlines who do not. It will probably remain a point of discussion whether it is a good thing to have relatively inexperienced first and second officers on board of your aircraft.
Maybe some pilots(captains) who have been flying with ab-initios can more objectively participate in this discussion. The current discussion seems to be one of the ab-initios against the self-improvers which is not a good thing, since we finally all have to share the same cockpit, work together and trust each others abilities and experience, no matter what way led us into that position as an airline pilot.
If you dont then its a tougher route, used to be via the states, where the flying is the mutts nuts and the standards high ( in general).
the arrogance of these 200 hr middle class dutch plonkers is astounding. they are confusing privilage, or wealth with ability."
I'd like to comment on this statement, since I think it contains a lot of prejudices that exist about ab-initio students, which in my opinion are not justified.
When making the choice for a career as an airline pilot, several options exist. The most straightforward way to achieve this goal is to follow an ab-initio training program at a flight school with a known reputation, that has proven to deliver their graduated student directly to the airlines.
For me it was a very logical step to first try to be accepted in such a program. Unfortunately, nearly everybody pursuading a professional career in aviation in The Netherlands will therefore initially apply to schools like KLS, NLS and EPST. Because of the large number of applicants only those who pass the various selection stages are offered a position in the training program. Key factors in a succesfull application are motivation and ability and NOT, as batty_boy points out, how rich, wealthy and arrogant you are.
For KLS a large part of the selection is done by an independent testing office (Aeromedical Institute nowadays) and I think it is clear that they don't test you for a couple of days to find out how much money you have on your bank account or whether you are arrogant enough to make it as an airline pilot.
KLS has the policy that no matter what you're financial situation is, once you are accepted for training, the bank will provide you with a loan. In case of failure of the student during training or the drop-off of a student due to other (for example medical) reasons, a special fund will take over your debts. This provides the student with a much smaller financial risk and also guarantees that no matter how poor or rich you are, your chances of getting into the program are equal.
I also disagree with Bokkerijder who points out that being accepted by KLS or NLS has everything to do with 'knowing the right person at the right place'. I can tell you that from our class there is nobody that has a connection in anyway to the airlines that KLS supplies its students to. As I pointed out earlier, the selection is carried out by an independent institute and they are totally not interested in the abilities of your father or mother, brother or sister, who might all be very capable pilots. It is YOU that is the subject of the testing and YOU have to prove you have the ability and motivation to make it as an airline pilot.
Another point of disagreement with Bokkerijder concerns the fact that we 'look down upon the self-improver'. In fact most of us are very much aware of the amount of commitment it takes to walk that road. The experience you gain is invaluable and you will have encountered all the real-life probems and challenges facing a pilot, that we as ab-initio's will only face once we land our first job at an airline.
The difference between the self-improver and we as ab-initios at KLS, lies in my opinion in the fact, that from day 1 we are flying according to the procedures as used by KLM. This means that when flying light singles for your intial-training you are already working in the multi-crew-concept, fly in the airliner style and keeping up a very high pace of training. The last part of the training (after only 6 months from your first flight) is done on an Airbus A310 6 DOF full flight simulator. When you are finished you have been transformed into a KLM-robot. That's the reason we are hired by airlines like KLM and Lufthansa with only 200 flight hours and not because self-improvers would be less capable of doing that same job.
I don't think that the statistics can prove that airlines employing ab-initios are less safe to fly with than airlines who do not. It will probably remain a point of discussion whether it is a good thing to have relatively inexperienced first and second officers on board of your aircraft.
Maybe some pilots(captains) who have been flying with ab-initios can more objectively participate in this discussion. The current discussion seems to be one of the ab-initios against the self-improvers which is not a good thing, since we finally all have to share the same cockpit, work together and trust each others abilities and experience, no matter what way led us into that position as an airline pilot.
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I think I know Bokkerijder is frustated for two reasons:
1 He did not pass the selection at the NLS (FACT)
2 He did his training prob. in the US and in the end paid a lot more than he would have paid at the NLS.
Furthermore, I think people are taking it the other way around. The first question among low-timers is always, 'how many hours have you got?' When I was a lowtimer with 190 hrs there were a lot of 'free-market guys' looking down on me because of their 1000 hours Metro/King-Air/Beech, etc.
The thing we are talking about is merely a behaviour initiated by guys who did their training in the US.
So, Bokkerijder, please grow up, I'll take it(your profile) you have a job now with Crossair, enjoy it.
1 He did not pass the selection at the NLS (FACT)
2 He did his training prob. in the US and in the end paid a lot more than he would have paid at the NLS.
Furthermore, I think people are taking it the other way around. The first question among low-timers is always, 'how many hours have you got?' When I was a lowtimer with 190 hrs there were a lot of 'free-market guys' looking down on me because of their 1000 hours Metro/King-Air/Beech, etc.
The thing we are talking about is merely a behaviour initiated by guys who did their training in the US.
So, Bokkerijder, please grow up, I'll take it(your profile) you have a job now with Crossair, enjoy it.
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IDUNNO
what are you on about...here we are talking about FR hiring pilots....and yes if they have what it takes good for them.....
where are you in the midatlantic anyway????
Go back to your plane spotting....
what are you on about...here we are talking about FR hiring pilots....and yes if they have what it takes good for them.....
where are you in the midatlantic anyway????
Go back to your plane spotting....