Pprune should go
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Pprune should go
I've come to the sad conclusion that pprune has been let down by the majority of its contributors.It now only exists to demonstrate what a disparate bunch of malcontents we all are.I see no evidence whatsoever of a pilot community that we all imagined we were a part of.I just see dissension and endless bickering.And its being beamed out all over cyberspace which does our reputation as professionals absolutely no good at all.
God only knows what the travelling public must think of us...the juvenile remarks,the unabashed anti-American sentiment(check out the latest on the Chinese spy plane posting),the "I'm alright Jack" brigade..
its ugly and getting uglier by the day.
The pilot community is alive and well this side of the Atlantic.It seems to be in a sorry state of affairs on your shores.The sort of behavior described in the recent BA 747DEP posting,if its true,would just NOT happen over here.I can't imagine being part of an airline where junior and senior pilots eye each other suspiciously or flight deck and flight attendants are at war with each other.What an unpleasant mess if its true...
PPrune should be a place for serious(and sometimes not so serious)debate but its become a place to hang out the dirty linen...for everyone to see.
God only knows what the travelling public must think of us...the juvenile remarks,the unabashed anti-American sentiment(check out the latest on the Chinese spy plane posting),the "I'm alright Jack" brigade..
its ugly and getting uglier by the day.
The pilot community is alive and well this side of the Atlantic.It seems to be in a sorry state of affairs on your shores.The sort of behavior described in the recent BA 747DEP posting,if its true,would just NOT happen over here.I can't imagine being part of an airline where junior and senior pilots eye each other suspiciously or flight deck and flight attendants are at war with each other.What an unpleasant mess if its true...
PPrune should be a place for serious(and sometimes not so serious)debate but its become a place to hang out the dirty linen...for everyone to see.
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Upgrade, sadly there is some truth in what you say! The behaviour on line of some our
so-called professional collegues is, at best, disappointing. However, I disagree with your suggestion that that it should be shut down.
It is up to those of us who disagree with this sort of behaviour to stop it.
Remember it takes two to tango! It is all too easy to rise to the bait when someone makes a fatuous but hurtful remark. Replying, albeit justifiably, only serves to perpetuate the argument and encourage the originator to carry on.
I have benefited from some very useful info provided by well informed and generous contributors. It would be a great loss if we were to prevent that from continuing. Yes, there is also room for a bit of fun too!
We should remember that all rumours are bullsh** until they are proven.... at which point they cease to be rumours!!
Encourage the good and ignore the bad!
so-called professional collegues is, at best, disappointing. However, I disagree with your suggestion that that it should be shut down.
It is up to those of us who disagree with this sort of behaviour to stop it.
Remember it takes two to tango! It is all too easy to rise to the bait when someone makes a fatuous but hurtful remark. Replying, albeit justifiably, only serves to perpetuate the argument and encourage the originator to carry on.
I have benefited from some very useful info provided by well informed and generous contributors. It would be a great loss if we were to prevent that from continuing. Yes, there is also room for a bit of fun too!
We should remember that all rumours are bullsh** until they are proven.... at which point they cease to be rumours!!
Encourage the good and ignore the bad!
Guest
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Quite right, noax, there are many sensible quiet contributors who discuss matters in a civilised, informative,and polite way, but there is an uncouth and very vocal minority who substitute loudness and insult for logic and debate.
Sadly, in a free society all have an equal right to voice our opinion no matter how outrageous. The price of democracy.
We should however, refuse to rise to the bait, and not reply in kind to the more tasteless contributions.
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lost in hold.
Sadly, in a free society all have an equal right to voice our opinion no matter how outrageous. The price of democracy.
We should however, refuse to rise to the bait, and not reply in kind to the more tasteless contributions.
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lost in hold.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Upgrade
If you want a completely uncensored forum.(Decency & Lible aside) Which I think we do, then you have to put up with a few pillocks and malcontents. Bad news will always be at the forfront of any discussion as that's Human nature. If you don't like what someones says then frankly, good! thats a good basis to continue a discussion. I think the moderators do their best to close any pointles threads or those that sink into juvenile mud slinging, that should be enough.
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You fly em we'll fill em!
If you want a completely uncensored forum.(Decency & Lible aside) Which I think we do, then you have to put up with a few pillocks and malcontents. Bad news will always be at the forfront of any discussion as that's Human nature. If you don't like what someones says then frankly, good! thats a good basis to continue a discussion. I think the moderators do their best to close any pointles threads or those that sink into juvenile mud slinging, that should be enough.
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You fly em we'll fill em!
Guest
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I had to read the whole of the Chinese/US spy plane thread prior to comment.
What American bashing - all nationalities (at times) get an earful on Pprune.
It is an information service, not a gospel, not a guide to life; I disagree with much that I see in papers, the internet and TV, I listen to things and do wonder about the reasons for certain political decsions (e.g. Bush not signing th Kyoto agreement, the privatisation of ATC over here).
Yes, some folks do like to slag one another off - with the usual my Boeing is better than your Scarebus thread - so what, isn't that what makes life interesting. The world would be dull if we were all the same.
LONG LIVE PPRUNE (and down with the dissenters)
What American bashing - all nationalities (at times) get an earful on Pprune.
It is an information service, not a gospel, not a guide to life; I disagree with much that I see in papers, the internet and TV, I listen to things and do wonder about the reasons for certain political decsions (e.g. Bush not signing th Kyoto agreement, the privatisation of ATC over here).
Yes, some folks do like to slag one another off - with the usual my Boeing is better than your Scarebus thread - so what, isn't that what makes life interesting. The world would be dull if we were all the same.
LONG LIVE PPRUNE (and down with the dissenters)
Guest
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re the spy plane thing - if you spy on someone and get cought then you must be prepared to cop the consequences. Unfortunately our yank friends have a superiority complex and can't accept that they might be stepping on someone elses toes. And it is not only in the asian area - go to the ME and just look at the way they carry on there. Its embarassing to watch.
Regarding Pprune, well I aggree and disaggree. In its presant form it is becoming unacceptable to our profession and its not because of pilots but because of the non pilots and management making stupid uninformed or devisive comment. I strongly believe it is time to weed out the non pilots. The membership might be cut by half but at least pilots will be talking to pilots and that is the most important thing.
Have a nice day
Regarding Pprune, well I aggree and disaggree. In its presant form it is becoming unacceptable to our profession and its not because of pilots but because of the non pilots and management making stupid uninformed or devisive comment. I strongly believe it is time to weed out the non pilots. The membership might be cut by half but at least pilots will be talking to pilots and that is the most important thing.
Have a nice day
Guest
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Don't get too concerned about it. It very easy on chat boards like PPRUNE to overstate and be less than polite. I think you would find everybody, if talking face to face would be pints for each other. The bravado and emphasis inherent in the writing here is the equivelent of raising the voice a little, a slight interruption, etc. that would be common in normal spirited debate. If you think PPRUNE is uncivil, you ought to see two New Yorkers who are FRIENDS, have a discussion!
Hell, I might even buy the Guv a pint -- but I wouldn't ask him for a job!
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 04 April 2001).]
Hell, I might even buy the Guv a pint -- but I wouldn't ask him for a job!
[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 04 April 2001).]
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I agree that it would be a shame to see PPRune go as it can be a useful and fun forum from students all the way up to management. I also think that due to the nature of the internet then another, and perhaps even worse, site would soon follow if it were shut down. Better, I think, to keep it where we know we have some control over it.
What I would say though is this:
I have a good friend who's life has been badly affected by this forum. He was severely slagged off by his workmates openly on this forum. All comments were unfounded and very unwarranted. Comments made ranged from personal insults to professional slander - they were basically nasty. They were all anonymous and thus clearly cowardly in nature. I suspect comments were born from jealousy or simple personal dislike.
This happened quite sometime ago.
This came at time when he was suffering considerable personal difficulty at home and in his personal life.
He took it very personally and became doubting and paranoid of his own abilities. He felt that people would think (as people do) 'no smoke without fire'.It put an even greater strain on his home life and his very own partner started to doubt him after reading the comments. A promotion was cancelled at around the same time and he felt he began to lose favour with his management, he believes, because of the comments. Attitudes seemed to change toward him at work - or certainly he felt that. He was even called into see his managers to answer to the allegations made - which he did and disproved everyone of them! He was placed under a tremendous amount of strain as a result of someones cheap, poorly thought out and ill researched comments.
He eventually left the company that he was working for as it simply became too stressful for him. That was a great shame as he had a promising future ahead. It was a great shame as he is actually a guy of great integrity, very capable and would help anyone get on.
A couple of years later he has recovered his life well and is today a training captain on a large jet. He still, though, suffers from lack of confidence as a result. His relationship is only just starting to recover fully. Occasionally he still gets comments from people that knew of the slander. He is also paranoid that people will remember the slander and assosciate it with him, and affect his career again. He still resents this forum very very much.
He considered suing but was unable, at the time, to track down individuals responsible. An option would have been to sue PPRune for allowing this to happen. He spoke to Danny first, however, and decided not to proceed with legal action as he would probably close the site down. He beleived that would result in the forum setting up somewhere else and it would likely be even less regulated. Danny also promised to moderate these matters better. Danny is also a nice guy who is willing to help in these matters. So my friend didn't proceed - although, at times,he says he wishes he had.
So what I am saying is THINK!!!!! Before you post. What you post here, sitting in the comfortable anonymity of your home; what you think is a bit of fun or a pop at someone can have very real and lasting affects. To try to change peoples perception of an individual or situation using this forum is very very cowardly and childish. Some people will take what is said here very seriously.
THINK before you post or one day it may be you they are talking about!
What I would say though is this:
I have a good friend who's life has been badly affected by this forum. He was severely slagged off by his workmates openly on this forum. All comments were unfounded and very unwarranted. Comments made ranged from personal insults to professional slander - they were basically nasty. They were all anonymous and thus clearly cowardly in nature. I suspect comments were born from jealousy or simple personal dislike.
This happened quite sometime ago.
This came at time when he was suffering considerable personal difficulty at home and in his personal life.
He took it very personally and became doubting and paranoid of his own abilities. He felt that people would think (as people do) 'no smoke without fire'.It put an even greater strain on his home life and his very own partner started to doubt him after reading the comments. A promotion was cancelled at around the same time and he felt he began to lose favour with his management, he believes, because of the comments. Attitudes seemed to change toward him at work - or certainly he felt that. He was even called into see his managers to answer to the allegations made - which he did and disproved everyone of them! He was placed under a tremendous amount of strain as a result of someones cheap, poorly thought out and ill researched comments.
He eventually left the company that he was working for as it simply became too stressful for him. That was a great shame as he had a promising future ahead. It was a great shame as he is actually a guy of great integrity, very capable and would help anyone get on.
A couple of years later he has recovered his life well and is today a training captain on a large jet. He still, though, suffers from lack of confidence as a result. His relationship is only just starting to recover fully. Occasionally he still gets comments from people that knew of the slander. He is also paranoid that people will remember the slander and assosciate it with him, and affect his career again. He still resents this forum very very much.
He considered suing but was unable, at the time, to track down individuals responsible. An option would have been to sue PPRune for allowing this to happen. He spoke to Danny first, however, and decided not to proceed with legal action as he would probably close the site down. He beleived that would result in the forum setting up somewhere else and it would likely be even less regulated. Danny also promised to moderate these matters better. Danny is also a nice guy who is willing to help in these matters. So my friend didn't proceed - although, at times,he says he wishes he had.
So what I am saying is THINK!!!!! Before you post. What you post here, sitting in the comfortable anonymity of your home; what you think is a bit of fun or a pop at someone can have very real and lasting affects. To try to change peoples perception of an individual or situation using this forum is very very cowardly and childish. Some people will take what is said here very seriously.
THINK before you post or one day it may be you they are talking about!
Guest
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Interesting comments. For what its worth, my two penneth:
1) Pprune, like any group or cross section of society, will attract its share of idiots / nutters / people you wouldn't want to sit next to on the bus. You can either ignore them and wait for them to get bored and go somewhere else or, if they are persistently offensive, kick them out.
I think the moderators do a great job in knowing where to draw the line, and some of the loonies are worth having here for a laugh (try searching ronchonner's posts).
2) The site does a fantastic job in educating, supporting and encouraging wannabees like me, and I'm sure that without this resource I'd still be happily driving fs2000, rather than jumping into a real C152 and trying not to bust the London TMA.
In short, this site is a huge benefit to a huge number of people, and out of 30,000 odd members, you'd be doing well to find more than a dozen or so that you really couldn't live with.
There, sermon over & back to sleep.
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Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit pruning.
1) Pprune, like any group or cross section of society, will attract its share of idiots / nutters / people you wouldn't want to sit next to on the bus. You can either ignore them and wait for them to get bored and go somewhere else or, if they are persistently offensive, kick them out.
I think the moderators do a great job in knowing where to draw the line, and some of the loonies are worth having here for a laugh (try searching ronchonner's posts).
2) The site does a fantastic job in educating, supporting and encouraging wannabees like me, and I'm sure that without this resource I'd still be happily driving fs2000, rather than jumping into a real C152 and trying not to bust the London TMA.
In short, this site is a huge benefit to a huge number of people, and out of 30,000 odd members, you'd be doing well to find more than a dozen or so that you really couldn't live with.
There, sermon over & back to sleep.
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Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit pruning.
Guest
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UPGRADE - Sadly mate; I'm with you on this one! Very, very sadly!
I've been flying for 20 years and am employed by a DHL supplier as an A300 Captain. Previously flew Rusty B747's. Nonetheless, I'm as disillusioned with this profession as you appearto be.
I'm not writing this to illicit a response. Merely to satisfy my own dissattisfaction!
I've been flying for 20 years and am employed by a DHL supplier as an A300 Captain. Previously flew Rusty B747's. Nonetheless, I'm as disillusioned with this profession as you appearto be.
I'm not writing this to illicit a response. Merely to satisfy my own dissattisfaction!
Guest
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Rabbit,
I have been in the Airline Industry all my working life (some 38 years), and I have been visiting PPRuNe for many many years, posting for several years (even longer than the profile indicates), but I am NOT a pilot.
There was a post a few years ago when I only used to read PPRuNe, not post, that I had information on and someone was after, so I contacted Danny to ask him if he would please post this info for me. He replied that I was most welcome to register and then reply to the post myself. When I queried that this was not possible as I was not a pilot, he said that this was no problem as long as I had an interest in Aviation and always posted within the "established guidelines". This I have always done.
I agree that there are some postings from time to time that I think are not worthy of being on PPRuNe, and if the majority of pilots, and Danny, wish it to be pilots only, I have no problem with that, but I assure you that banning all non pilots will NOT fix the problem. I can guarantee that it will not stop all the "stupid, uninformed or devisive comments" to use your words.
Best regards,
"lame"
(edited for grammar only, not content)
[This message has been edited by lame (edited 05 April 2001).]
I have been in the Airline Industry all my working life (some 38 years), and I have been visiting PPRuNe for many many years, posting for several years (even longer than the profile indicates), but I am NOT a pilot.
There was a post a few years ago when I only used to read PPRuNe, not post, that I had information on and someone was after, so I contacted Danny to ask him if he would please post this info for me. He replied that I was most welcome to register and then reply to the post myself. When I queried that this was not possible as I was not a pilot, he said that this was no problem as long as I had an interest in Aviation and always posted within the "established guidelines". This I have always done.
I agree that there are some postings from time to time that I think are not worthy of being on PPRuNe, and if the majority of pilots, and Danny, wish it to be pilots only, I have no problem with that, but I assure you that banning all non pilots will NOT fix the problem. I can guarantee that it will not stop all the "stupid, uninformed or devisive comments" to use your words.
Best regards,
"lame"
(edited for grammar only, not content)
[This message has been edited by lame (edited 05 April 2001).]
Guest
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Do stop telling us all how we should behave. Christ Almighty, don't you people ever give it a rest. How many times have we all heard that 'as a body of professionals we should behave like this and we should not say that, blah bloody blah!'
We're not allowed to disagree with our American cousins; Keep it British; if you disagree, politely decline to say anything; we have to portray an image of self control. What a load of balls! Don't we all do enough on the flight deck sticking to rules?; hoodwinking passengers when we're late, or when the weather is likely to shake their teeth out on the galley floor?
I feel for your friend Choomi and I don't agree with that sort of persecution if it is specifically targetted, but that is, surely, an extreme case. However, I find it very rich for a Yank to tell us how we should behave here and that the type of rivalry that goes on here doesn't go on in America.
The big difference between Americans and the rest of the world is that we have a sense of humour and can take all this in our stride (with the odd unfortunate exception - no disrespect aimed at your friend Choomi). The Australians have even more of a sense of humour than we do but the Yanks just can't take it. Neither can they take it that we don't always agree with their antics and they hate to be criticised. Well, I have news for you America: Pilots are people with their own opinions and personalities; their professionalism is reflected in their work and their personalities in their free time; come to terms with it or log out!
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
We're not allowed to disagree with our American cousins; Keep it British; if you disagree, politely decline to say anything; we have to portray an image of self control. What a load of balls! Don't we all do enough on the flight deck sticking to rules?; hoodwinking passengers when we're late, or when the weather is likely to shake their teeth out on the galley floor?
I feel for your friend Choomi and I don't agree with that sort of persecution if it is specifically targetted, but that is, surely, an extreme case. However, I find it very rich for a Yank to tell us how we should behave here and that the type of rivalry that goes on here doesn't go on in America.
The big difference between Americans and the rest of the world is that we have a sense of humour and can take all this in our stride (with the odd unfortunate exception - no disrespect aimed at your friend Choomi). The Australians have even more of a sense of humour than we do but the Yanks just can't take it. Neither can they take it that we don't always agree with their antics and they hate to be criticised. Well, I have news for you America: Pilots are people with their own opinions and personalities; their professionalism is reflected in their work and their personalities in their free time; come to terms with it or log out!
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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!
Guest
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Choomi you have GOT to be taking the p**s. This sounds more like an "Our Tune"! Long live Pprune and ALL its colourful contributors. Why do some people take themselves so seriously? It's fun!!! Don't you get it? Stop being so pompous! If you don't like it, then log off instead of seeking to change what IMHO is a near perfect format.
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No one’s perfect, but PPRuNe comes close. By being open to more than just professional pilots, and being very intelligently moderated, it’s become a very influential forum — not many industries are as well served. Lots of people other than pilots have an interest in professional aviation, and PPRuNe meets their need rather well. Yes, some contributors lower the standard, but I know of few anonymous forums on the Internet that are as sensible, informative, intelligent, informed and balanced as this.