BA seeks volunteers for unpaid leave/work
Sold to whom? Nobody has any cash. BA are not as badly off as some airlines, except of course, there isn't a lifeline in the form of a government bailout or Chapter 11. Just cold, hard economic reality. Makes you proud to be British.
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So talks tonight have broken down between various workforce sectors and BA management, I am not surprised, most of these people are on lowish salaries and so cannot make much of a sacrifice. The whole company has to ditch its past baggage, mostly its pension liabilities, and then move on. It has to happen throughout the UK, where currently 85% of the UKs GDP is needed to finance civil servants pension liabilitiies, so why should BA be any different. We need chapter 11 or the UK equivalent here in the UK.
Surely it is more important to have a job now and worry about the future later.
Surely it is more important to have a job now and worry about the future later.
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The whole company has to ditch its past baggage, mostly its pension liabilities, and then move on.
If that happened BA would lose their rights to landing slots at Heathrow and Gatwick (and any other UK airport that have slot limitations). When you consider that slots at LHR are valued at up to 30 million apiece, and BA include these slot values in their company valuation, the company becomes worth an awful lot less than the current value of about 1.6 billion.
Rumours kicking around the financial markets are that the pensions black hole is around 2.9 billion, can anyone confirm that?
Junior trash
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and BA include these slot values in their company valuation,
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Just as the East Coast Rail network has been re-nationalized is it not a possibility that BA could follow the same course?
Controversial, moi?
So many misunderstandings.
Some APS pensioners are on six figure pensions. Those under the old old contract witha retirement age of 50 could 'crystalise' their pensions at 50. In effect they paid no more contributions but the pension value continued to increase to retirement at 55. It virtually doubled the employees pension. QUite how I do not know but that is a fact and good luck to those lucky enough to retire before the thieving Brown hammered the final nails into the UK private pension schemes.
Also when people glibly talk of BA closing NAPS it is financially impossible for them to do so. If they did the funding requirements are calculated on a 'discontinuance' basis and the last numbers I heard were that the cost would be around £6bn, and that was a year or two ago. The current deficit is around £3bn. There are ways of reducing the liabilities (deficit) and those negotiations between BA, employees, trustees and the regulator will occupy much of next year.
Some APS pensioners are on six figure pensions. Those under the old old contract witha retirement age of 50 could 'crystalise' their pensions at 50. In effect they paid no more contributions but the pension value continued to increase to retirement at 55. It virtually doubled the employees pension. QUite how I do not know but that is a fact and good luck to those lucky enough to retire before the thieving Brown hammered the final nails into the UK private pension schemes.
Also when people glibly talk of BA closing NAPS it is financially impossible for them to do so. If they did the funding requirements are calculated on a 'discontinuance' basis and the last numbers I heard were that the cost would be around £6bn, and that was a year or two ago. The current deficit is around £3bn. There are ways of reducing the liabilities (deficit) and those negotiations between BA, employees, trustees and the regulator will occupy much of next year.
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M Mouse ..so many misunderstandings. Yes , indeed. Pension contracts will not continue to be honored if the fund simply cannot afford to pay. Pressure to apply new legislation will be intense. You will find much talking in dark rooms about how to proceed to achieve this end. This is just nature taking its course within a filthy market place. Quite simply a ' new game' about to start. Lets see how the public sector workers fare when they try and shout down the inevitable end to their defined benefit schemes. Go to any gym on a monday morning and you will find 49 yr old retired police inspectors on the treadmills enjoying a rather good deal fter 30 years service or perhaps..early retirement for sickies. All just playing the game. Trouble is it all has to stop. Yes, the law will move to allow change.
Koi ...ex Ara house
Koi ...ex Ara house
you will find 49 yr old retired police inspectors on the treadmills enjoying a rather good deal fter 30 years service or perhaps..early retirement for sickies. All just playing the game.
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Pensions
Basil...I do believe the boys in blue pay a considerable amount towards their pension in order to retire earlier than most, rather than still be scraping around the ground with wrongdoers when they are 65. I don't begrudge them that, but that's just my own humble opinion.
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As an ex boy in blue, we contributed a minimum of 11% of each monthly salary. It was being discussed that a new pension would be introduced with reduced payments for new recruits. Not sure if it happened, but if it did your next generation 49yr old ex inspector will be found in working in tesco rather than working out in the gym.
Now to BA's problem.
It was a fraud. Whilst asking full time staff to work for free, the company re-employed ex managers as consultants. Ex-managers who only left last christmas with a decent package. And now return on upto a quoted £1000 a day. Rational arguments such as the lack of pension contributions and NI being paid by BA are rather insignificant when, the company tells you matters are so bad volunteers are needed to work for free.
Now to BA's problem.
It was a fraud. Whilst asking full time staff to work for free, the company re-employed ex managers as consultants. Ex-managers who only left last christmas with a decent package. And now return on upto a quoted £1000 a day. Rational arguments such as the lack of pension contributions and NI being paid by BA are rather insignificant when, the company tells you matters are so bad volunteers are needed to work for free.
Ted,
I've two in the extended family and understood (not from them) that a number of police officers arrange early retirement on compensation.
If I misjudge our polis then, of course, I apologise and withdraw.
Yes, as you say, I wouldn't want to be tackling a 20yo nuisance at age 65.
I've two in the extended family and understood (not from them) that a number of police officers arrange early retirement on compensation.
If I misjudge our polis then, of course, I apologise and withdraw.
Yes, as you say, I wouldn't want to be tackling a 20yo nuisance at age 65.
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Computation I think they call it.
Leave at 48 wih 30yrs service and you get a pension pot of lets say, 500k.
Options.
1/ Leave on a pension of 26k PA.
2/ Take up to of 25% pot in cash, eg, 125K cash tax free and a pension of 18K PA, or anyway you like between zero and 25%.
And remember, all gold plated and keeps up with inflation thanks to joe public who fund it, Gordon has different views on public and private pensions, he milked the private and spent it.
So if you meet a very happy 48yr old x policeman, you know why.
However on balance they did/still do a great job, must be getting harder in this PC world we live in, keep up the good work chaps.....
Leave at 48 wih 30yrs service and you get a pension pot of lets say, 500k.
Options.
1/ Leave on a pension of 26k PA.
2/ Take up to of 25% pot in cash, eg, 125K cash tax free and a pension of 18K PA, or anyway you like between zero and 25%.
And remember, all gold plated and keeps up with inflation thanks to joe public who fund it, Gordon has different views on public and private pensions, he milked the private and spent it.
So if you meet a very happy 48yr old x policeman, you know why.
However on balance they did/still do a great job, must be getting harder in this PC world we live in, keep up the good work chaps.....
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It's Commutation i.e. you surrender pension to 'commute back' to a greater lump sum than that offered as standard. These days index linking is 'capped' and may not keep up with inflation.
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Sorry for drift, but if you thought my last post numbers were good.
About 2 years ago, the Actuaries got involved and changed the numbers, the fellow who wanted to opt for the 18K PA pension and was expecting 125k tax free cash got an uplift of the 125k to about 143k because the Actuaries said it would be more fair.
So as private pensions slide down, public pensions slide up, it must be fair !!!!
About 2 years ago, the Actuaries got involved and changed the numbers, the fellow who wanted to opt for the 18K PA pension and was expecting 125k tax free cash got an uplift of the 125k to about 143k because the Actuaries said it would be more fair.
So as private pensions slide down, public pensions slide up, it must be fair !!!!
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I believe that I've come up with a solution which will be satisfactory to all sides and comprises:
1) BA's board immediately awards Willie Walsh a 10-year package-deal based on his fixed salary today of £732,000 PA (£61,000 x 12), of 1,000 times that, in a combination of future salary / bonuses / stock options etc. on the basis that BA solidly returns to profit at some stage in the future. In other words, BA will immediately contract an obligation to pay out £732,000,000 to Willie Walsh over the next 10 years, all going well.
2) Willie Walsh goes "cap in hand to Gordon Brown" (He who saved all the bankers from destitution). "Oh Great One, save us from the Virgin (Airlines)".
3) As a consequence, BA are given generous government subsidies mostly disguised as government loan guarantees for several £billions. But with the proviso that Willie Walsh himself takes a serious pay cut.
4) Willie Walsh's pay cut (by Gordon Brown / government decree) would involve WW to sacrifice fully 4/5ths of his future 10 year earnings (Ie. £732,000,000 *80%) That is the equivalent of £585,600,000. More than enough to wipe out in an instant BA's £401 million losses declared in May 2009 and add a useful £146.4 million to this fiscal year's cash-flow.
5) Do the sums, and you'll see that everyone's basically much better off. The 800 (out of a total of 40,000+) BA employees who've already volunteered won't have to work for nothing. And even WW who stood to lose £61,000 for not being paid for July 2009, actually still stands to gain the equivalent of £146.4 million over 10 years (all going well) - the equivalent of an extra £1,220,000 per month...?!
Come on then, fault my logic...?!
What about the shareholders...?! Who were the majority shareholders of many US airlines that went into bankrupcy like Delta etc.?! Yeah, the fat-cat pilots mostly earning as much as WW mainly...?! 
1) BA's board immediately awards Willie Walsh a 10-year package-deal based on his fixed salary today of £732,000 PA (£61,000 x 12), of 1,000 times that, in a combination of future salary / bonuses / stock options etc. on the basis that BA solidly returns to profit at some stage in the future. In other words, BA will immediately contract an obligation to pay out £732,000,000 to Willie Walsh over the next 10 years, all going well.
2) Willie Walsh goes "cap in hand to Gordon Brown" (He who saved all the bankers from destitution). "Oh Great One, save us from the Virgin (Airlines)".
3) As a consequence, BA are given generous government subsidies mostly disguised as government loan guarantees for several £billions. But with the proviso that Willie Walsh himself takes a serious pay cut.
4) Willie Walsh's pay cut (by Gordon Brown / government decree) would involve WW to sacrifice fully 4/5ths of his future 10 year earnings (Ie. £732,000,000 *80%) That is the equivalent of £585,600,000. More than enough to wipe out in an instant BA's £401 million losses declared in May 2009 and add a useful £146.4 million to this fiscal year's cash-flow.
5) Do the sums, and you'll see that everyone's basically much better off. The 800 (out of a total of 40,000+) BA employees who've already volunteered won't have to work for nothing. And even WW who stood to lose £61,000 for not being paid for July 2009, actually still stands to gain the equivalent of £146.4 million over 10 years (all going well) - the equivalent of an extra £1,220,000 per month...?!
Come on then, fault my logic...?!
What about the shareholders...?! Who were the majority shareholders of many US airlines that went into bankrupcy like Delta etc.?! Yeah, the fat-cat pilots mostly earning as much as WW mainly...?!
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Selfish cabin crew!
I simply can't believe the selfishness of cabin crew for refusing to help support the airline. It's the easiest thing in the world to blame management and everyone else, but the situation is extremely tough, but there is no doubt that BA will pull through when the economy improves. But this kind of 1950's union militancy does absolutely nothing to help all the other employees who rely on an efficient BA.
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Actually circa 39200 employees were selfish enough not to help the company. Why would they, whilst asking fully employed staff to work for free, BA re-employed staff as consultants, on upto £1000 per day, consultants who has recently taken a handsome lump sum to leave. Oh, and just after announcing the initiative as a success, Walsh announces that we are actually doing better than our rivals and still have £1.4billion in the bank.
Circa 39200 employees saw this initiative as a premature and unnecessary request, or a stunt.
Circa 39200 employees saw this initiative as a premature and unnecessary request, or a stunt.
