Florida's pilot factory

[chimbu warrior]

Some good posts here, particularly by Kwachon, Glueball and Dan Winterland.

We should be training to a standard proficiency, not a standard price.

Another thing that bothers me is that I see new CPL's who believe they are already airline Captains, and consider the path between their fresh licence (250 hours or so) and the left seat of a jet to be just a time-wasting nuisance. Take pride and demonstrate skill and professionalism in whatever you are flying, whether it is a C172, a tatty old Navajo, a Shorts or a 747.

A further good point was made by someone much earlier in this thread; be prepared to listen and learn from people who have been there. I learned a great deal from people that I have never even sat in an aircraft with - but they were willing to impart wisdom and experience that I could later use to advantage.

The learning never stops.......

[Bingaling]

99.9% of 250 hour co pilots as you term them are absolutely professional and willing to learn every step of the way. They have to start somewhere. Don't begrudge them their luck in getting a job so early into their flying careers.

Quit the slagging and derogative remarks. You too had only 250 hours. Of course there will be tossers out there with 250 hours who believe they have nothing to learn. Don't worry, that will be either be beaten out of them, or some day they will scare themselves into realising they have a world of learning to do. In the same vane there are plenty of people with 5000 hours who have those same attitude defects!

[A-3TWENTY]

By the book , JAA allow one with 1500hs to ship an airliner.Once you have your ATPL , theoreticaly you are already allowed to be Captain of an airliner.

I`ve seen some guys on the left that I wouldn`t release for the right seat.

In Europe ,instructors are "forced" to cause no problems releasing pilots for both left and right seats in order not to cause problems to the company and this way keep their function as instructors.

Nowadays most instructors must be nice guys if they want to take some extra $$ home.

[CANPA]

"I have to say, my client pass rate was almost 90% until coming to India"

Kw if you are so concerned about the way these so called rich kids are coming out of flight schools in the US and getting F/O positions in India what are you doing about it.

I was a flight instructor at a flight school in the US before coming back to india and picking up a position on a PC-12 as a first officer. Couple of years of flying the Pilatus as a captain, i was hired as a F/O on a 737 by Sahara and now fly for as captain for a leading low cost airline.

I am not sure who you fly for but at my company the training programme has been re worked several times keeping in mind the level of the F/O coming in. You cant really blame someone for having 250 hrs unless you were born with a several thousand. As far as the quality of pilots....I have seen enough in the US, even guys coming out of schools with degrees in Aviaiton who still think life is a big frat party.

Franky i am kind of hurt by most of what you have said in your post. If you have been hired here in some training capacity I think you probably have never tried to contribute to training other than maybe making smart comments about yourself. Also it seems the time is right for you to go back to wherever you came from so we might not read about you in the papers.....cheers

[INNflight]

Quote:
I make full use of all the time for the oral, I have been known to go for 4 hours on more than one occasion mainly because I do not want to rush the process

Four hours for an oral!!! You must get paid by the hour? If you cannot tell how good a candidate is in under an hour of intelligent and reasonable questions then time you went into retirement. No candidate should ever have to put up with that sort of bulls...

I agree four hours is a bit over the top, but my oral for my commercial took 2,5 hrs too, and we basically talked non-stop.

The thing I like about the FAA system is that they use common sense to a good extent. Fly the airplane, get to know it, and don't think about calling V1 and VR in a fricking C-150 on a 8,000ft runway (I've had students here tell me they had to calculate their rotation speed before a lesson)....... I mean, are you shi****g me??

[68+iou1]

I have leant allot from my FO’s! Obviously more from a 5000hr FO and less from a 250 FO.
But, I’m always learning!

[jetopa]

When you are becoming a doctor, you have to practise certain treatments like intubations, setting up an intravenous infusion or even basic surgical skills on a living person at some time. How else are you supposed to learn how to do it? That's the truth and it has been like that for ages that you have an experienced 'teacher' guiding you through it and assisting you.

The same applies to our beloved profession: how are you supposed to learn how to operate your aircraft in all kinds of phases, WX etc. if not under realtime conditions under the supervision of an experienced person next to you?

The art is to truthfully realize and acknowledge when a situation becomes critical, demandig the person in charge to take over and to accept that now the instruction time is over.

The LH-guy in Hamburg would have been better off to fly the approach under extreme crosswind conditions himself.
Capt. Sullenberger on the other hand quite naturally claimed his right to assume control in a potentially desastrous situation (I do not want to imply that his F/O wouldn't have been able to the same!). We all know the outcome.

[kwachon]

CANPA

Firstly, I would suggest you go back and re-read what I wrote and you will see I was complaining about the pilot factories in the US and the total lack of knowledge they have for the enviroment the new pilots are coming back too. All they want is the money and the next student through the door. Do you really think they care what happens to them when they leave?

Secondly, You are living in a bubble if you are not aware of the corruption within the DGCA and the number of new "250 hour" pilots that have used the system to get on board.

I am not attacking the Indian pilot as you say, merely the system that is putting them in that situation.

Engage brain before writing an opinion!.

Cheers

KW

[Dan Winterland]

Quote: "Capt. Sullenberger on the other hand quite naturally claimed his right to assume control in a potentially desastrous situation (I do not want to imply that his F/O wouldn't have been able to the same!). We all know the outcome."

Yes, but he had no choice. Once the second engine failed, the A320 they were flying was in the Emergency Electrical Configuration and only the left hand screens were powered. Not really a right, just Airbus design philosophy..

[org]

QUOTE<Flying privatly Cessna/whatever piston for a prolonged period (over 5 years let's say) often makes pilot no longer suitable for airline environment, because along with raw flying skills (good) he also getting adopted to single pilot, light aircraft, VFR etc. Very recently we had to say goodbye to FO with as much as 4000 hrs SEP (and very good background references), after struggling for 300 hours on the right seat of airliner it become clear he cannot adopt and follow CRM, SOP, performance calculations, situation awareness in congested terminal areas etc, while most of our 300 hrs TOTAL time young FOs have absolutely no problem with it.>QUOTE

I'd take exception with the term "often". I've found in a fairly long career that "often" it's just the opposite: some of the best pilots came from a single pilot background...but I must say that most of them had extensive single pilot IFR experience flying light twins and singles in night freight. A GOOD pilot can adapt to crew ops easier than a BAD pilot regardless of his experience level. Perhaps some of those that were washed out were simply not good pilots, never mind their flight hours. The guys flying single pilot night freight (yes, it's IFR) without autopilots or glass cockpits have unmatched situational awareness and flight skills and have proven it by surviving. I'm not sure what performance calculations have to do with low time.

I wouldn't say low timers are inherently bad pilots, but chances are they won't display the SA or skills of a more experienced flyer.

[411A]

I wouldn't say low timers are inherently bad pilots, but chances are they won't display the SA or skills of a more experienced flyer.

Quite correct, in my view.
And yes, I've trained very low time pilots into the RHS of heavy jet airplanes for a very long time.
Some can adapt, some cannot.
It's the type of dedicated specific airline training that counts, make no mistake.
The ex-military fast jet guys can be a pain at times....a few of 'em just don't like to be told what to do.
Too bad for them....it's either co-operate or....out the door.
Ain't going to change anytime soon, either.

[nbairlines]

Good day all,

IMHO a pilot is the product of an airline´s training. CPL , fATPL, MCC etc etc are essential qualifications, but the real shaping is done by the airlines.

Some EU airlines hire 170h guys, after first putting them through a rigorous selection process, rigorous TQ training (at airline´s expense) and paying decent wages and offering decent working conditions. Works fine in my experience.

maybe a cliché, but 200 or 2000hrs, the most important thing is the willingness to learn, and one´s own responsibility to keep on doing so. Know your stuff inside out, learn from the experienced guys, ask questions, “building” your own experience and reference.

Interesting thread BTW


Regards,
NB

[Smilin_Ed]

Is the typical 250 hour FO from one of the "puppy mill flight schools" able to safely land the airplane should the captain become suddenly incapacitated?

[rottenray]

I'm not a pilot, I've never been to flight school, but I have served (USAF) and I have been employed all my life in various careers which require discipline and constant learning.

Some comments:

I make full use of all the time for the oral, I have been known to go for 4 hours on more than one occasion mainly because I do not want to rush the process

That's a very comforting thing to hear - you must have realized at some point that ANY final exam is only the first part of the next level of training, not the end of training. I'll bet that a student learns quite a bit during one of your "slow cooker" exams - and certainly comes away with the idea of how important the whole gig really is.


Next, there have been a few comments about low-hour military pilots, and I truly don't believe there is a parallel; shorter training times and performance at lower experience hours are possible because of the whole military culture. Discipline, must not fail, et cetera. Not so much that all the skills have been developed - but the attitude is different.


I think the whole of the problem is that so many folks have begun to think of flying as so every-day, so mundane, that we are seeing more people getting into the right and left seats as a "job" rather than out of a true love and respect for aviation.

Hence, the underachievers, the folks who can throw money at the problem, the glory seekers (as one post mentioned) are not as diluted by exemplary pilots as they once were.

Couple that with the huge economic squeeze, and lower skill levels can find the way in, unfortunately.

...

[Longtimer]

"28th May 2009, 09:27 #5 (permalink)
st7860


Join Date: May 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 45 there's a few of those factories in Canada too "

And they are?????

[Gillegan]

I think this thread is veering off target. The question isn't whether low time pilots with GOOD training can adapt to airline operations but whether these so-called "pilot factories" really provide that "good training". The airline that trains the ab-initio pilot has a vested interest in seeing that their pilot is well trained. Even in the era of the bean-counters, I suspect that most of those carriers endeavor to do a good job training.

On the other hand, outfits like Gulfstream might have other motivations. Once someone who has paid for their training's checks have cleared and they are through training, Gulfstream really doesn't have that much of an interest anymore. To me the pertinent questions are:

1. What happens and who pays when someone cannot perform to the "required standard" within the programmed amount of training?
2. Does the answer to #1 influence the outcome of any checks?
3. What extra training do the captains receive who will be flying with these "students"?
4. What are the future implications for our profession (which I would still like to believe relies on skill and competence) when someone with "deep pockets" can advance beyond someone who has that skill and competence but doesn't have the money?

There have been some startling accidents with some Gulfstream "graduates" at the controls which really make me question whether outfits like them should be shut down for the public safety.

[D O Guerrero]

I think this thread really must rate as the greatest load of self-righteous crap I have ever read on PPRUNE.... And that really is saying something.

[jetopa]

Is the typical 250 hour FO from one of the "puppy mill flight schools" able to safely land the airplane should the captain become suddenly incapacitated?

Dear Smilin Ed,

you can bet on it they can! Otherwise no company which is right in their mind would ever dare doing it.
Yes, LH has to earn money, too - but a ruined reputation due to deficient training is much more costly and the beancounters know that for sure!

[dc10fr8k9]

JAA vs. FAA, Training mills and 250 hr wonders etc.

First of all, Gulfstream has never crashed a plane. Not bad for all those little planes puttering around nine or more legs a day in thunder-storm-a-rama day in and day out, year in year out, decade after decade now, with minimum avionics and sometimes so many MEL red dots pasted all over it looks like the cockpit has measles! And yes, with Captains who babysit the FO's just like they do anywhere in the world when the FO doesn't have the necessary experience yet. And where is one to get experience? I'd rather pilots get experience sitting to the right of competent Captains than from school of hard knocks teaching themselves, flying checks solo in some Navajo at night in the winter as, someone suggested in this thread. That way, a pilot is just as likely to land on my house! At least the Beech 1900 is a plane which can be flown by one person safely, so that if the FO is indeed totally incompetent, the flight is not immediately in danger. And no Captain will long suffer a fool in the right seat, even at Gulfstream.

These people crashed planes at other separate carriers. Not all correlations can indicate reliable and valid conclusions. I wonder, how many former American Flyers or Comair graduates (also large pilot mills for example) have met their end in an airplane? Is the assumption therefore that those schools are also bad training grounds for pilots because three or four of their graduates ended upside down in the ground in the wreck of an airplane somewhere? The wholesale tarnishing of Gulfstream pilots is merely yellow journalism by some media hounds who know little about the industry, and are more interested in sensationalism and winning Pulitzers than fair reporting or doing the industry or the flying public any service.

It is a separate issue that Gulfstream was charged with doctoring schedules, and the practice is probably rampant in the industry worldwide. It is the antiquated FAA regulations that make the problem as bad as it is. The JAA gets my thumbs up on that subject, because at least in Europe there is more common sense in the duty and flight time regulations. In the USA, the duty and rest times rules are absurd. That is what the news hounds should sink their teeth into, but somehow no reporter does.

Gulfstream has just like all airlines, mostly excellent aviators, and a few weaklings. They are everywhere, and if you read the accident reports of many other mishaps, you will see that some poor performers do get through the system everywhere, and that is a shame. I have flown heavies where the FO had no business being in an airplane, but that kind of pilot is the serious exception, not the rule. It's sad, but no matter how good the screening and testing, there will always be occasions where poor training, poor judgement, and inadequate oversight conspires with fatigue, weather, and all the other usual suspects in the chain of events, that lead up to accidents. Then, there are the good pilots, who are sometimes the unlucky, or the tired, who are just the same, the victims or perpetrators of accidents. And they are everywhere.

I was a Captain and instructor at Gulfstream, as well as at other airlines later on. The first thing I wrote on the board on day one of ground school is "THERE IS NO RESET BUTTON". I know first hand, that my colleagues and I were anything but lax with standards, knowing that once let loose, these pilots were largely on their own out there in the airspace, with exceptionally challenging circumstances (who wants to fly through a squall line 5 or 6 times in one day at 25,000 ft?), and none of us wanted any corpses on our consciences. Many fine aviators worked there and still surely do, and many moved on to almost every great and small airline there is. The problem is not Gulfstream, it is the unfortunate combination of poor judgement, sometimes poor skills, circumstances (such as weather), and coping with outdated regulations which cause fatigue, a serious issue that is still swept under the carpet. And this can be the outcome of any training environment.

As far as FAA vs. JAA, I speak from experience also. Having done both, I can say that the FAA for all it's faults, at least focuses on what is important rather than minutiae, and the training and examination process there is related to the practical and useful. The FAA written test is merely symbolic, and the real test is the oral and practical as some have commented. The JAA goes by the assumption that if someone can pass the absurdly pedantic JAA tests, then they have the required intelligence to be pilots. About 75% of the content of the JAA tests is absolutely useless, and having 10,000 hours and 28 years in the air, if I needed to know how three quarters of that nonsense, I think I would have already known it! Anyone who has written the JAA tests will surely agree, most of it is merely a memory and intelligence test, and much of it has little merit in the real world.

And there are pilot mills all over the world, in fact it is the norm, not the exception. I recall that most of the "contract" FO's at Gulfstream were foreign. They now fly for airlines all over the world, from Holland, to China, to Brazil, to India, in fact, everywhere. It was merely cost effective for those pilots to do their "internships" at Gulfstream. I am not advocating or condemning the system, it merely is an observation. But until airlines all over start being compelled by the regulations to run clean and tight ships with regard to training and duty, accidents will happen, but you cannot legislate accidents away, that are the result of human nature, whether it is recklessness, fatigue, fear of consequences, or whatever. Everyone shares the blame; the reckless or careless pilot, the operator that milks the aviator to the limit of human physiological limits, the government regulators who are more concerned with collusion and appeasement of industry. And finally the customer also, who has got used to buying the cheapest ticket (you get what you pay for) which in a completely unregulated environment drives everything down, and the run for the bottom cost wise, will always result in inexperienced pilots, poorly or improperly maintained equipment, marginal training, and absurd schedules, all of which are waiting for fate disguised as unusually bad weather, mechanical failure, or a reckless or poorly trained pilot to contribute to the chain of events which leads to an accident. But as we can see sadly, even today, paying to sit in first class on the newest plane at one of the great airlines of the world still won't save you from a sad fate if the cards are stacked against you that day.

We should all endeavor as aviators to make the industry as safe as possible, but uninformed rhetoric by media people who are merely trying to sell newspapers to even more uninformed masses won't help one bit.

[Will Fraser]

Well said, thank you.