"Hero" pilot's pay cut, pension stopped
It's definitely more important to pay 25-year-old airline execs with fresh MBA's or marketing degrees giant bonuses, for all of their bright fresh ideas 
so they can do everything else but run an airline-----then it is to pay FC
one suggestion they should go back to calling themselves 'Allegheny' so we can call'em 'Agony'
Sully, Jeff --- go with Branson!!!--- Silly Pilots, Tricks are for Kids
so they can do everything else but run an airline-----then it is to pay FC
one suggestion they should go back to calling themselves 'Allegheny' so we can call'em 'Agony'
Sully, Jeff --- go with Branson!!!--- Silly Pilots, Tricks are for Kids
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 5th Mar 2009 at 16:25. Reason: Grammar, since everyone here is sooo pissy about it
Me Myself - your defeatism is part of the reason we are in the current predicament. Why just begrudgingly accept this stuff?
We are also in this situation because one pilot willingly undercuts his peers to fly a big shiny jet. What else would managers do but take advantage of that situation.
Fortunately there are thousands of jets on order and fewer and fewer qualified (let alone experienced) pilots to fly them.
Basic law of economics dictates that will improve salaries at least.
We are also in this situation because one pilot willingly undercuts his peers to fly a big shiny jet. What else would managers do but take advantage of that situation.
Fortunately there are thousands of jets on order and fewer and fewer qualified (let alone experienced) pilots to fly them.
Basic law of economics dictates that will improve salaries at least.
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[QUOTEFortunately there are thousands of jets on order and fewer and fewer qualified (let alone experienced) pilots to fly them.
Basic law of economics dictates that will improve salaries at least.[/quote]
My defeatism as you say, is only based on these basic laws of economics.
Supply and demand.
I was reading yesterday that 11% of the total world fleet is parked in the desert and this ain't over yet. More to come I'm afraid.
I think you are wrong. Even if traffic picks up once this recession is over ( when ??? ) it will remain a very competitive industry where controlling costs will be paramount.
I am sorry you are still living in that shiny past of ours where, as it has been said, we were treated like royalties.
Back a couple of years ago, I was standing outside my hotel in New York, waiting for my transport. A guest came out and asked me to order him a cab !!! ................which I did by the way, opened the door for him and only then did he realize who I was. That spoke volume to me and I had a real laugh. So much for taking oneself too seriously !!
When I was a kid, engineers were royalties, then came the managers who also flamed out once technology allowed to trim the corporate tree.
Until recently it was hedge fund managers. Who will be next ??
It's only history on the move and there is nothing you can do.
Air travel has become as tacky and common as a flat screen tv.
I understand you don't like hearing it, nor do I relish saying it but I totally refuse to kidd myself. I take what's good in it and would advise any Wannabee ( who will not listen ) to stay away because if you're looking for passion you will not find it in the airline industry.
Basic law of economics dictates that will improve salaries at least.[/quote]
My defeatism as you say, is only based on these basic laws of economics.
Supply and demand.
I was reading yesterday that 11% of the total world fleet is parked in the desert and this ain't over yet. More to come I'm afraid.
I think you are wrong. Even if traffic picks up once this recession is over ( when ??? ) it will remain a very competitive industry where controlling costs will be paramount.
I am sorry you are still living in that shiny past of ours where, as it has been said, we were treated like royalties.
Back a couple of years ago, I was standing outside my hotel in New York, waiting for my transport. A guest came out and asked me to order him a cab !!! ................which I did by the way, opened the door for him and only then did he realize who I was. That spoke volume to me and I had a real laugh. So much for taking oneself too seriously !!
When I was a kid, engineers were royalties, then came the managers who also flamed out once technology allowed to trim the corporate tree.
Until recently it was hedge fund managers. Who will be next ??
It's only history on the move and there is nothing you can do.
Air travel has become as tacky and common as a flat screen tv.
I understand you don't like hearing it, nor do I relish saying it but I totally refuse to kidd myself. I take what's good in it and would advise any Wannabee ( who will not listen ) to stay away because if you're looking for passion you will not find it in the airline industry.
Last edited by Me Myself; 6th Mar 2009 at 08:22.
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Have been a voyeur on PPRuNe since a pilot acquaintance put me onto this site a few years back. Used to just check in after an incident but now I also appreciate getting your perspectives on a variety of issues as well as the humour and computer tech support. I can understand the feelings of disappointment and anger expressed by some on this forum. Many appear to have gotten a raw deal and received pretty poor treatment from their companies. I know why you feel there is less fun in flying than there once was. I also sympathize with your frustration about over zealous and seemingly pointless security searches by Neanderthals in uniform acting on orders from above.
But comments like “technology has made us almost useless” and “bus drivers get more respect” .…..Surely you don't believe that. I know that most of you get into the profession because you love flying. In return for being able to pursue your passion, you accept responsibility for the safety of thousands of passengers over your careers. Because of that, the respect the general public has for you will always be there. Autopilot doesn't take care of every eventuality and we're well aware of that. We want to believe that you're up to the challenge of achieving the best possible outcome if things go wrong. (After time spent on PPRuNe, I know more than I want to about the downside of autopilot and FBW systems.)
My dad was a mechanic for a major airline. I'm old enough to have had the privilege of being allowed in the cockpit when I was a kid and remember being in awe of what I saw there. As an adult, that feeling of awe has given way to respect and appreciation for what you do. And I know that even those who aren't aware of some of the realities of piloting— like sleep deprivation and the toll separation can take on family life—are thankful that you have what it takes to do demanding work with more responsibility than the rest of us can even imagine. The crew of flight 1549 has done a tremendous job in reminding the public of that. As an aside, although I have always had a lot of respect for those in the cockpit, I now view flight attendants in a new light and admit that (in my mind) I didn't give them the respect they deserve.
One poster commented that you used to be treated treated like royalty and those days are gone. Well, even royalty isn't treated like royalty these days. It's a sign of the times. But hopefully most of you know that you are still respected, appreciated and even admired. Today's police officers would like a little of that.
But comments like “technology has made us almost useless” and “bus drivers get more respect” .…..Surely you don't believe that. I know that most of you get into the profession because you love flying. In return for being able to pursue your passion, you accept responsibility for the safety of thousands of passengers over your careers. Because of that, the respect the general public has for you will always be there. Autopilot doesn't take care of every eventuality and we're well aware of that. We want to believe that you're up to the challenge of achieving the best possible outcome if things go wrong. (After time spent on PPRuNe, I know more than I want to about the downside of autopilot and FBW systems.)
My dad was a mechanic for a major airline. I'm old enough to have had the privilege of being allowed in the cockpit when I was a kid and remember being in awe of what I saw there. As an adult, that feeling of awe has given way to respect and appreciation for what you do. And I know that even those who aren't aware of some of the realities of piloting— like sleep deprivation and the toll separation can take on family life—are thankful that you have what it takes to do demanding work with more responsibility than the rest of us can even imagine. The crew of flight 1549 has done a tremendous job in reminding the public of that. As an aside, although I have always had a lot of respect for those in the cockpit, I now view flight attendants in a new light and admit that (in my mind) I didn't give them the respect they deserve.
One poster commented that you used to be treated treated like royalty and those days are gone. Well, even royalty isn't treated like royalty these days. It's a sign of the times. But hopefully most of you know that you are still respected, appreciated and even admired. Today's police officers would like a little of that.
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Respect is earned, it is not given without merit.
That is why transport pilots are held in high regard; they perform the functions they are paid to do, competantly and professionally. When the police do the same, they may come to enjoy a similar standing.
That is why transport pilots are held in high regard; they perform the functions they are paid to do, competantly and professionally. When the police do the same, they may come to enjoy a similar standing.
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The professor (post55)
I find myself reading your post and not being completely sure if it is tongue and cheek…your argument seems so simple that I’m not sure if you are joking ?
Captain Sullenberger has already gained his experience and knowledge in commercial aviation prior to any pay reduction. A military background prior to joining commercial flying also helped I’m sure. You do not loose all that just because your salary decreases.
It has been mentioned prior to your post that once you are in a job for a number of years it becomes much more difficult to change career. Captain Sullenberger is 58 what would you suggest he do ? I would also assume that he is senior enough to still be on enough of a salary to live and even though he detests taking a cut will hang on until retirement.
The point is that the training and knowledge was already there. There are great number of issues surrounding this thread and cutting pay is part of it. You could look at everything from unrealistic short term goals set by those in charge to personal pride, industry stigma and training to mention but a few.
I find myself reading your post and not being completely sure if it is tongue and cheek…your argument seems so simple that I’m not sure if you are joking ?
Captain Sullenberger has already gained his experience and knowledge in commercial aviation prior to any pay reduction. A military background prior to joining commercial flying also helped I’m sure. You do not loose all that just because your salary decreases.
It has been mentioned prior to your post that once you are in a job for a number of years it becomes much more difficult to change career. Captain Sullenberger is 58 what would you suggest he do ? I would also assume that he is senior enough to still be on enough of a salary to live and even though he detests taking a cut will hang on until retirement.
The point is that the training and knowledge was already there. There are great number of issues surrounding this thread and cutting pay is part of it. You could look at everything from unrealistic short term goals set by those in charge to personal pride, industry stigma and training to mention but a few.
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We will be fine for a while as experienced pilots slowly retire. Then we will see what the next generation of pilots will be. Low pay, no retirement and bad working conditions will not attract the best pilots. A few might still come but the quality of the pilots will drop and that will cause a big drop in airline safety. We deserve what we get because automation can't fix what Sully had to deal with, only a highly experienced pilot.
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Like Late arrival, I have been reading this thread for years.
In the 1950s (yes!) I ws nuts on being an RAF pilot. The RAF taught me to go solo on Chipmunks as a cadet. Then there was the infamous 1958 Duncan Sandys Paper. The RAF advertised itself for "boys who want to fly" .... no mention of a career.
I chose a different career, was very successful, made redundant in 1999, had enough skills to pick up another very successful set of consultancies - happy with it all.....
What did I learn and what's it got to do with you ?
I was very active in my union; we didn't win everything but we didn't lose a lot. We had scabs - we fought them as hard as we fought the management. We found publicity a powerful weapon - tell the public how it is.
[I]Honestly[I] very, very few people think there might be someone in the front seat paying to fly them.....
Push the press, the TV, the aviation magazines, [I]anyone[I] you can get the message across to. How much do passengers pay to fly Ryanair? How much do pilots pay ? Have (jokes) - leave bits of paper on airline seats with requests for collections for the pilots' (cabin staff ?) training.
BET I've just been made "redundant" from one of my consultancies for speaking out .....
I'm poorer but my head's still high.....
Good luck; when I'm in the back, I'll be thinking of you up front.
Nigel
In the 1950s (yes!) I ws nuts on being an RAF pilot. The RAF taught me to go solo on Chipmunks as a cadet. Then there was the infamous 1958 Duncan Sandys Paper. The RAF advertised itself for "boys who want to fly" .... no mention of a career.
I chose a different career, was very successful, made redundant in 1999, had enough skills to pick up another very successful set of consultancies - happy with it all.....
What did I learn and what's it got to do with you ?
I was very active in my union; we didn't win everything but we didn't lose a lot. We had scabs - we fought them as hard as we fought the management. We found publicity a powerful weapon - tell the public how it is.
[I]Honestly[I] very, very few people think there might be someone in the front seat paying to fly them.....
Push the press, the TV, the aviation magazines, [I]anyone[I] you can get the message across to. How much do passengers pay to fly Ryanair? How much do pilots pay ? Have (jokes) - leave bits of paper on airline seats with requests for collections for the pilots' (cabin staff ?) training.
BET I've just been made "redundant" from one of my consultancies for speaking out .....
I'm poorer but my head's still high.....
Good luck; when I'm in the back, I'll be thinking of you up front.
Nigel
The Sharemarket is the problem
G'day Gents.
The way I see it, the problem lies with public companies. The CEO's of public companies exist ONLY to:
1. Provide dividends to the shareholders
2. Facilitate an increase in the share price
Share holders don't care if your airline is "almost crashing" 99% of the time. This doesn't affect the share price. And you can bet your backside that the CEO's are managing this risk with armies of Actuaries telling them how far to push it. When I say push it, I mean compromising on the quality of crew through hiring practices and over-work.
Some major airlines seem to now effectively operate wide-bodied jets with a single experienced operating pilot, and a seat-warmer sitting alongside. That's fine when everything is going well; but, what happens (for example) if the captain experiences a subtle cerebral haemorrage (brought on by stress, too much booze, and not enough sleep?) on brakes-release at a major city airport?
They suck in a flock through the two left engines; the captain is thinking "Look at all the pretty lights..."; the copilot is thinking "Wow, he's so good this guy, he's rolling inverted and pulling to get us out of this...". Fully-laden widebody ploughs through 150 houses and two hotels. 620 instant statistics go into the spreadsheet.
I see this risk management style of the airlines as being similar to a lift curve: all seems fine as your angle of attack rises and rises and rises (look at our cost-savings; look at our beautiful safety record; most importantly look at our in-flight bar).
But then your angle becomes critical, and you stop flying.
"Oops; we shaved a bit much from our operating costs. Very sorry for the crash."
I think the aviation industry is unwillingly participating in a statistical experiment at the behest of the public companies.
Only after the last merger has been made; the last competitor has been bought; the last non-essential human employee made redundant, will public companies realise that what they've been doing has been unsustainable.
Given the recent global debacle at the hands of the "Captains of Industry", this time is coming sooner than we may think.
But I could be wrong, and everything will continue just fine, and nobody will be hurt. Now let's all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya".
The way I see it, the problem lies with public companies. The CEO's of public companies exist ONLY to:
1. Provide dividends to the shareholders
2. Facilitate an increase in the share price
Share holders don't care if your airline is "almost crashing" 99% of the time. This doesn't affect the share price. And you can bet your backside that the CEO's are managing this risk with armies of Actuaries telling them how far to push it. When I say push it, I mean compromising on the quality of crew through hiring practices and over-work.
Some major airlines seem to now effectively operate wide-bodied jets with a single experienced operating pilot, and a seat-warmer sitting alongside. That's fine when everything is going well; but, what happens (for example) if the captain experiences a subtle cerebral haemorrage (brought on by stress, too much booze, and not enough sleep?) on brakes-release at a major city airport?
They suck in a flock through the two left engines; the captain is thinking "Look at all the pretty lights..."; the copilot is thinking "Wow, he's so good this guy, he's rolling inverted and pulling to get us out of this...". Fully-laden widebody ploughs through 150 houses and two hotels. 620 instant statistics go into the spreadsheet.
I see this risk management style of the airlines as being similar to a lift curve: all seems fine as your angle of attack rises and rises and rises (look at our cost-savings; look at our beautiful safety record; most importantly look at our in-flight bar).
But then your angle becomes critical, and you stop flying.
"Oops; we shaved a bit much from our operating costs. Very sorry for the crash."
I think the aviation industry is unwillingly participating in a statistical experiment at the behest of the public companies.
Only after the last merger has been made; the last competitor has been bought; the last non-essential human employee made redundant, will public companies realise that what they've been doing has been unsustainable.
Given the recent global debacle at the hands of the "Captains of Industry", this time is coming sooner than we may think.
But I could be wrong, and everything will continue just fine, and nobody will be hurt. Now let's all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya".
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Airlines sole purpose is to make money: they're failing.
Read this blurb about airline profitability or not ... http://www.businessspectator.com.au:80/bs.nsf/Article/Aviations-rapid-descent-$pd20090325-QG2W3?OpenDocument&src=kgb
Doesn't bode well for the industry. Maybe we should ask the gubmints of the world to print some more money over here, please, like the US gave AIG $150 billion.
Doesn't bode well for the industry. Maybe we should ask the gubmints of the world to print some more money over here, please, like the US gave AIG $150 billion.
Last edited by avi8ors; 25th Mar 2009 at 05:19.
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Thought a "hero" is one who puts him/herself in harm's way to protect others..as I see it, while having done a brilliant job in ditching the aircraft, this chap was merely ensuring his own survival, and by default those of his passengers and crew...
This survey was put out in early March by Ascend. The results should surprise very few here but won't be popular with airline managements:
Aviation Insiders' Survey Backs Hudson Hero Captain Sullenberger's Concerns
Last update: 12:44 p.m. EDT March 30, 2009
LONDON & NEW YORK, Mar 30, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- In a year already struck by high-profile accidents, the aviation industry has repeated
its anxiety about safety, in a survey for Ascend, the aerospace specialists.
Along with poor financial health, a shortage of experienced personnel, fatigue and tough work practices were considered the greatest dangers
to air safety, mirroring concerns expressed in an Ascend survey last year. This year, fears over complacency had significantly increased.
The results come shortly after Captain Chesley Sullenberger's comments that cost cutting practices, putting pressure on airline staff, are
threatening safety. Speaking about his successful landing of US Airways flight 1549 in New York's Hudson river, he said, "One way of looking
at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training. And on January
15th the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal." Sullenberger is alarmed at practices, which he fears threaten
that bank.
Ascend Safety director Paul Hayes agrees with the sentiment. "Industry cutbacks are causing concerns. Aviation personnel are aware that they
are working harder for less money, and they link this with increased risks to safety," he says.
"However, these views need to be balanced with the fact that safety is expected to continue improving over the next five years thanks to
better technology and management accountability for safety. It follows that respondents overwhelmingly placed responsibility for continued
improvement with management. They feared that inexperience, fatigue and complacency threaten the value of safety improvements."
Almost 200 aviation insiders from over 40 countries responded to the survey, conducted in March by Ascend.
Ranking safety threats from 1 (least important) to 10 (most important), most insiders rated: a shortage of experienced personnel at +7;
airline financial health +7, management experience and culture +8; fatigue/difficult work practices +7; and complacency +6.
"It's important for aviation management to take these views onboard and respond accordingly, seeking to balance economic challenges with
appropriate levels of safety training and sound work practices, says Hayes."
Observations by respondents supported these views:
-- "Airline management irresponsibly views safety as an additional cost."
-- "Safety is about attitude and accountability."
-- "Cost is the problem in all areas."
-- "Top down emphasis on safety is what brings it to the fore."
-- "Pilots must be trained to immediately to go to manual to avoid secondary impacts."
For charts on survey results:
Survey Results
About Ascend
Ascend ( www.ascendworldwide.com) is the world's leading provider of specialist information and consultancy services to the global air transport industry. For over four decades it has supplied the most reliable, trusted and up-to-date aviation industry information and insight available anywhere.
Last update: 12:44 p.m. EDT March 30, 2009
LONDON & NEW YORK, Mar 30, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- In a year already struck by high-profile accidents, the aviation industry has repeated
its anxiety about safety, in a survey for Ascend, the aerospace specialists.
Along with poor financial health, a shortage of experienced personnel, fatigue and tough work practices were considered the greatest dangers
to air safety, mirroring concerns expressed in an Ascend survey last year. This year, fears over complacency had significantly increased.
The results come shortly after Captain Chesley Sullenberger's comments that cost cutting practices, putting pressure on airline staff, are
threatening safety. Speaking about his successful landing of US Airways flight 1549 in New York's Hudson river, he said, "One way of looking
at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training. And on January
15th the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal." Sullenberger is alarmed at practices, which he fears threaten
that bank.
Ascend Safety director Paul Hayes agrees with the sentiment. "Industry cutbacks are causing concerns. Aviation personnel are aware that they
are working harder for less money, and they link this with increased risks to safety," he says.
"However, these views need to be balanced with the fact that safety is expected to continue improving over the next five years thanks to
better technology and management accountability for safety. It follows that respondents overwhelmingly placed responsibility for continued
improvement with management. They feared that inexperience, fatigue and complacency threaten the value of safety improvements."
Almost 200 aviation insiders from over 40 countries responded to the survey, conducted in March by Ascend.
Ranking safety threats from 1 (least important) to 10 (most important), most insiders rated: a shortage of experienced personnel at +7;
airline financial health +7, management experience and culture +8; fatigue/difficult work practices +7; and complacency +6.
"It's important for aviation management to take these views onboard and respond accordingly, seeking to balance economic challenges with
appropriate levels of safety training and sound work practices, says Hayes."
Observations by respondents supported these views:
-- "Airline management irresponsibly views safety as an additional cost."
-- "Safety is about attitude and accountability."
-- "Cost is the problem in all areas."
-- "Top down emphasis on safety is what brings it to the fore."
-- "Pilots must be trained to immediately to go to manual to avoid secondary impacts."
For charts on survey results:
Survey Results
About Ascend
Ascend ( www.ascendworldwide.com) is the world's leading provider of specialist information and consultancy services to the global air transport industry. For over four decades it has supplied the most reliable, trusted and up-to-date aviation industry information and insight available anywhere.
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Thought a "hero" is one who puts him/herself in harm's way to protect others..as I see it, while having done a brilliant job in ditching the aircraft, this chap was merely ensuring his own survival, and by default those of his passengers and crew...
This point has been made before but it doesn't seem to have registered with some. Isn't walking the aisles of a sinking airplane twice to make sure everyone had gotten out "putting himself in harms way"? He could have just yelled "Everybody out?" as he headed for the life raft.
This point has been made before but it doesn't seem to have registered with some. Isn't walking the aisles of a sinking airplane twice to make sure everyone had gotten out "putting himself in harms way"? He could have just yelled "Everybody out?" as he headed for the life raft.
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While I agree with the actual crews assessment that they were just doing their jobs; we have to realise that the general public has the perception that most people in high-profile professions; politicians, so-called business leaders etc, are doing those jobs in either a half-arsed manner, or with their own benefit placed so far above any other priority as to be laughable.
So when an airline crew comes along and performs a feat of unquestioned competence and coolness, and when after the landing they evacuated the aircraft according to their training, their only thought being to get everyone else out first, you have to understand that it is a bit of a novelty in this day and age.
Heroic even, by the norms of the day.
Sully and crew, you did a great job. But most airline crew members reading this would probably have performed in a similiar manner.
The public has a notoriously short memory, but hopefully that will be something to think about next time the "Overpaid bus drivers" and Trolley dolly" slurs get flung around.
So when an airline crew comes along and performs a feat of unquestioned competence and coolness, and when after the landing they evacuated the aircraft according to their training, their only thought being to get everyone else out first, you have to understand that it is a bit of a novelty in this day and age.
Heroic even, by the norms of the day.
Sully and crew, you did a great job. But most airline crew members reading this would probably have performed in a similiar manner.
The public has a notoriously short memory, but hopefully that will be something to think about next time the "Overpaid bus drivers" and Trolley dolly" slurs get flung around.
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Time for the tea party
Is it not the right time now that we organize ourselves into some type of World wide Pilot organization that has a membership based on an ATPL qualification. All members with an ICAO ATPL would have to be guaranteed a specific contract and T/C's. Non members would not be allowed to seek these jobs and airlines that did not submit would simply not have qualified pilots. Just an idea?
