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Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards

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Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards

Old 16th Feb 2009, 06:53
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Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards

Thousands of flights could be cancelled in a dispute between pilots and the Government over the introduction of identity cards.
The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) said that its members – 84 per cent of the commercial pilots in Britain – would not co-operate with Home Office plans to make airside workers “guinea pigs” for the cards
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 07:16
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Considering the hoops we have to jump through to get an airside badge I would have thought that this would be more than enough, just can not understand why such an ID card would be more acceptable, goes the line of some companies that take a driving license with no photo over a passport! red tape gone mad(again)
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 07:45
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I thought the idea was that these cards would be valid at all airports negating the problem of being issued an airside pass at each airport you serve. However the people who are advocating this card are, or would have been, responsible for the national ID scheme and this could be a way of trialling the system by the back door.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 07:47
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This has until now had very little press coverage so it is good that this is being reported and so far the comments from the public are suportive.
What must be remembered is that this ID is being forced through on the grounds that it will improve security, however you will still have to jump through the same hoops in order to get your Airport pass.
ie disclosure scotland writen refrences etc etc AND produce a goverment ID.
The airside pass will still have the same meaningless value when you go to another airport.
Improvement in ease of use will only come with a CAA issued airside pass valid for all airports.
This proposal will not enhance security it is just a means by which the ID card can be forced on us all step by step. If this goes ahead in just a few years we will all be required to carry it and produce it for all transactions - shopping fuel alcohol banks etc.
You will of course be able to trust our goverment not to lose the data sell it or leave it on a roundabout
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 08:05
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this is just another way of gordon implementing his 'stazi' like state by the back door. ID cards confer no benefit to anybody but the big brother state. Also given that the implementation of them costs 5 billion pounds and the tories and lib dems have both said they will cancel them if they come to power - i.e they will definately be cancelled by next year - then what is the point of the government keeping pushing them?
I'm glad that at least one section of our apathetic society is pushing back against a government who have hugely eroded our civil libities over the last decade. I support this and I'm going to refuse to have an id card.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 08:14
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Another step by Big Brother along the way to thought control.
George Orwell would turn in his grave.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 08:32
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Whatever happens you still wont be able to take a can of soup or fizzy to work and still have to deal with the mouth breathing organ donors that are the BAA....
Still a load of [email protected] tho, I wonder if any other group of aviation related workers kicked off about ID cards would it get the same coverage as the pilots? Oh, if only we had the same solidarity that you guys have in BALPA!
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 09:08
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BALPA step-up fight against National ID Cards


In what could be the first clash over the Governments intention to introduce ID cards and make it mandatory for airline pilots to carry them, the British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) has vowed to step up its opposition.

BALPA has written to the management of Manchester airport and London City airport - the first two locations selected by the Government to introduce the ID card to airside workers - and warned that pilots would not cooperate with the introduction of the ID card.

Seperately, in its submission to the Government's consultation on the ID card which ended on Friday ( February 13) BALPA warns of the difficulties that will ensue when pilots who refuse to register for the ID card lose their jobs.

Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of BALPA told the airport managements at Manchester and London City that they would be in the hot seat over this legislation and that pilots totally oppose what the Government is trying to force airport managements to do. He sent them a copy of BALPA's submission to the Government.

In this submission BALPA says: 'ID cards will have absolutely no value as far as security is concerned.'

It says of government attempts to force pilots to have ID cards 'this is nothing but coercion. Promises that ID cards would be voluntary have been broken.'

The Association says that forcing pilots to have ID cards 'is an affront to the people who for years have been, and continue to be at the forefront in the battle against terrorist outrages.'

'Your case that this will improve security has not been made. Indeed, it is clear, that you now recognise this as you claim that it will only make a contribution.'

And BALPA asks: 'what happens when the first airport worker refuses to register for an ID card? Our understanding from the draft regulations is ...that the individual will be out of a job. This could be an individual who has served his or her country as a Service pilot being told they are not now trusted. This is both unacceptable and demeaning and we will resist.'
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 09:15
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What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 09:20
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Does it cost £5 billion in Europe? Nope, didn't think so.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 09:28
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you can't be serious.... beeing screened all over the world by low class people, that get less money than MC Don... pays...
i am sick of taking off my shoes and take my laptop out of my pilot case..

If i would do somethingthing stupid... I AM SITTING BESIDE A CRASHAX!!!!!

I don't even need that... I HAVE TWO HANDS.......

STOPmplaying with us proffesionals, that are loving their job and bring milllion of passengers safe to their destinations everday all over the world....

PS. Are there any figures, how many guns, whatsoever armaments have been found by the screeningstuff of the airport, that Pilots or crew have carried on?

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Old 16th Feb 2009, 09:54
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Well done to Balpa - but where are the other unions?

Engineers, ATC, ground workers - we need you all behind this. The time to tell your unions you won't stand for it is now, or rest assured the Stasi will pick you off one by one.

Last edited by Desperate; 16th Feb 2009 at 17:27.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:18
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What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.
The concept of compulsory identity papers or cards is one of the things that defines a citizens relationship with their state, in the UK the relationship, currently under huge strain, has traditionally been one of the state as servant to the people. I would suggest that in many European countries the relationship is fundamentally different, the state appears to have more power of the individual and the compulsion to carry your papers with you at all times is a manifestation of that power.

Most of us in the UK want to keep the government at arms length and preserve the concept that the state is subservient to the people, we don't want ID cards even if, and it's a big if, they provide a little more security.

Well done to BALPA for fighting this one, in my opinion it's almost worth the subscription on it's own.
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:19
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More on this topic at another thread:-

Identity Cards

I only hope BALPA are successful in overthrowing this edict from HM "Government"
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:32
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Key points from the old thread on this

There was previously a large thread about ID cards on here which being an old technophobe I can't find at the mo.

However, to condense numerous pages into a brief summary (from memory), here are some of the important bits:

As a uk national working airside you will be required to buy an id card.

If you are not a uk national working airside you will not.

You are not legally obliged to show your National id card to anyone.

If you do not have a valid id card, the Govt have issued instructions that Disclosure Scotland will not provide a CRB check response that will enable you to obtain an airside pass. You will therefore lose your right to work airside.

If you do not advise the authorities of changes in personal circumstance/ that the card is lost etc you will face a hefty fine.

BALPA are making a stand against the forced purchase of id cards by pilots.

Various other unions have made noises against the forcing of ID cards onto its employees, however, as the unions are closely linked to the Labour government, there is concern that when the chips are down, the unions will not mount a credible challenge to Labour (this was a comment that was made by grass roots people within those unions).

There are issues over data security.

There are issues over what exactly the Government wants all the data for (your data can be linked to such things as loyalty card spending, your childrens Contact Point data, etc, etc).

There are issues about poor legislation which in theory would not prevent the outsourcing of database maintainance abroad in future. (The id card scheme is run by a private company -although a mojor shareholder is a government minister, I understand- so not a 100%civil service function).

The technology used within id cards is open to cloning (it has already been done) and will potentially do little to reduce the risk of identity theft.

The Government have not shown how aviation security will be improved by the scheme.

The issues of civil liberties, ethics, trust and acceptance by apathy I will leave you to decide for yourselves.

However, once we have them, there will be no getting rid of them.....

There were a number of very good posts on the old thread, which I haven't done justice to here, so apologies to any of you that I've unintentionally misquoted.

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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:36
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Thanks Fireflybob, I should have typed less and looked more!
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:42
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Low Class People

Flaphandlemover You are a pompous git if you really believe your own post. What the hell does a persons pay packet have to do with their character?
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 10:59
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Down under we have been forced to get an ASIC - Aviation Security ID Card. It is totally meaningless, does not improve safety, is just another tax and costs a packet. Has to be renewed every two years and it's a PITA. The only thing that it's done is taken access to AVGAS away from non-aviation related activities, such as racing.

It supposedly prevents unauthorised access to an airfield. Problem here is kangaroos have a habit of unauthorised-ly accessing airfields...so rather than issuing all the roos ASICs, they decided to spend MILLIONS on fences...

Many of the airfields are in the middle of nowhere, really nowhere.

Don't let them do it!
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 11:13
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What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.
Correct, I have such a thing. But it is what it says it is, an ID Card and not something linked into so many different systems so any joey at the local council can look at my tax records, social security records, medical history, et al.

That's one hell of a difference in the way that the UK system will work and how it works here.

One other little nugget for y'all though. The cards are being issued but there aren't any readers set up for them yet. So you have a biometric ID card from which the biometric data cannot be read to prove the person carrying the card is who he is. Priceless
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Old 16th Feb 2009, 11:25
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Although you said pilots have the plane at their hands...so why the security checks of pilots?
They could easily sabotage another aircraft not their own...not that I would think that would happen as I trust all pilots...but just a thought...I wish we could have no security or problems...I wouldnt think ID cards would work...most people dont have a criminal past who actually commit the worst crime of the air
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