Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC

[cats_five]

1 statue mile in the UK = 1760 yards, = 1760 * 3 feet.

So 9 UK status miles = 47520 feet. Divide that by 3,000 gives an L ration of just under 16 which I gather is well within the bounds for a modern commercial plane such as the A320.

However the arrival height is zero (not good unless there is a runway right ahead) and assumes no significant headwind or sink.

A nautical mile is pretty much 6,000'. If that is what was meant then the L goes up to 18 which is (I suspect) a pretty significant increase.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Was a Mayday called? I haven't heard that it was.

Waste of breath and time, better to get on with the job in hand - as they did.


They were already in constant communication with an ATC service, their plight and intentions were known and everyone knew where to go look for them !!

What would have been the point - exactly ?

[Deaf]

Airfoilmod - Probably getting O/T but not quite that simple. Rivets do have the advantage of providing a crack stop. Similarly in composites the strength of the bond resin/fiber is limited (apart from chemistry) to provide crack stopping.

[old-timer]

Top Job !

Top job, I salute the skill of Captain Sullenberger, his crew & everyone involved.

[airfoilmod]

Deaf

Well they do provide crack stops. All too often, crack starts as well. I'm in composites, so partial, however. Now way O/T.

AF

[bunkrest]

" However, I would guess that the passengers would be able to organize this rather simple task on their own, especially with the flight crew available to give orders. So I'm stumped in trying to find areas where the CC would have made a difference this event "

I see the point that you are trying to make ie: cabin crew had no impact in the outcome of this particular incident however it did make me smile when the succesful utilisation of a slide by an untrained hand was described as a "simple task".

Firstly there is the door mode to consider, (automatic/manual) with a stampded of traumatised pax beating a path behind you are you going to be able to work out what mode does what? Indeed are you going to want to open the door in automatic in the first place ?

So you've opned the door and because the cabin crew has selected manual (for a ditching) there is no slide inflation....what next...? has it failed? is there a manual inflation option? do you try yout luck at another door?

Ok so you've worked out how to inflate the thing, everyone has scuttled onboard...you want to get away from the fuselage...does it come away? how do you detach it....sure there may be instructions printed on the thing but how long is it going take you to read them..?

The pilots might well be around they might not, they might be together on the other slide or have beaten a hasty retrest out of the D.V. window or indeed (as in this case) be checking the cabin.

I just think its grossly unfair to those flight attendants to say that their imput was negligable/non existant without knowing the full facts.

[galaxy flyer]

Mayday Call

Always found that curious, screaming "Mayday". The only function would be alert ATC that you need their attention and, perhaps, traffic priority. Beyond that, ATC can do zero to assist. The E-3 crew in Elmendorf was literally screaming "mayday, mayday, mayday" as it sunk into the trees. What good could it possibly do?

GF

[AAKEE]

MayDay

I´d say 'MayDay' is the opening sentence, first time just to notify others that they shut the f**k up and let me use the frequency.
Most times You´d probably already said something that made all other listening to that freq. that aware of the situation, making it unnecessary to use the phrase.

[Adios]

About the only good reason to say Mayday is to break in to a channel clobbered with other calls, but that is not what I cam here to post.

Here is a link to a slideshow of photos taken as the bird was lifted from the water: Crews hoist ditched plane from Hudson River | IndyStar.com gallery | The Indianapolis Star

These show a baggage compartment door open. I suspect the divers opened this to expedite water escaping during the lift to the barge. Had this happened at impact, the door probably would have been ripped off, or at least twisted and mangled.

Some photos also show the tail cone is missing. Given the fact that from the videos of the landing, it looks like the tail hit first, I suspect maybe the divers didn't remove it, rather the impact probably did.

I wonder if losing the tail cone would negate the benefits of sealing the plane up with the ditch switch, which according to several reports was not activated in this incident.

[egbt]

I wonder if losing the tail cone would negate the benefits of sealing the plane up with the ditch switch, which according to several reports was not activated in this incident.

Is the tail cone not outside of the pressure hull?

[Pinkman]

I would still like to know what "large brown birds" bought down the aircraft. About the only large brown birds as described are geese, and geese don't flock like starlings, they fly in a 'V' (as noted by pattern_is_full). Ingesting one, fine, but two? You would have to exactly fly to intersect with the V-pair which were the same distance apart as the donks. The odds must be vanishingly small.

[airfoilmod]

Pinkman

Geese CRUISE in the "V". Below their altitude, (which they choose) they
loiter, until the lead takes his position. You would (might ) be surprised where grampa (Bull Goose) flies in the "V". NOT in front, but on the wing, drafting one of his juniors.

[scimart]

Reflections

I'd say that the fact there is debate, 2 days after the event, from the comfort of a PC in someone's living room as to whether the glide ratio of the A320 would have resulted in an arrival at an airport at the limit of the approximate theoretical range - assuming the pilot knew or could see at 9 miles that there were no obstructions to that marginal approch - more than justifies the decision to take the alternative of an approach involving risk to very few others on the ground. An arrival anywhere on the ground in a built up area other than the airport would have been very likely to have resulted in serious disruption to the airframe and fire. This decision had to be made in a few seconds as the options would be diminishing rapidly.

There has been speculation regarding Captain Sullenberger's experience as a fighter pilot and as a glider pilot. Surely, the former is, rather than concentrating on any counter-productive "gung-ho" aspects, someone who was trained to make life and death decisions in high stress situations and the second, rather than purely giving experience of judging final glides (useful, but I'd imagine that very few ATPLs would be unable to do the sums) - someone who has learnt to fly without the reliance on numbers and procedures which are the norm in powered aviation. Certainly, the common theme in "how I did it" speeches at gliding competitions always seems to involve a successful pilot thinking outside the box...

There's no reason to suppose, at this time, that any situation other than that reported to ATC existed - other than for the posters to be able to claim bragging rights that they "knew all along" that someone had made a mistake. I sincerely hope they are made to look very stupid.

[Marsh Hawk]

The E-3 crew in Elmendorf was literally screaming "mayday, mayday, mayday" as it sunk into the trees. What good could it possibly do?

Literally? Not according to the transcript of the accident, which is on page 6 of this Flight Safety Foundation report. It's an interesting read. I think it's relevant to this thread because bird strike accidents will be a worsening problem as the geese population continues to explode.

https://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_nov96.pdf

[scrufflefish]

Pinkman, your post on the small chance of hitting two birds is based on the assumption of a head-on (or tail-on) impact with the flock. Hit the V at an angle from the side and it is easy to postulate a very high number of birds within the engine-span of the aircraft.
In fact you could be unlucky enough fly up one leg of the V and take say 10 birds in one engine and one bird from the other leg in the other!

[armchairpilot94116]

NTSB says both engines out at same time:


NTSB: US Airways jet's engines lost power together - Yahoo! News

[shawk]

AP: flight recorder data

An update on the flight recorders from AP.

The flight data recorder of the US Airways jet that landed in the Hudson River shows both engines lost power simultaneously, investigators said Sunday.
Information from the flight recorders on the doomed aircraft was released as investigators worked to remove its fuel. After that is completed, officials hope to move the damaged plane off the river by the end of the day.

Kitty Higgins of the National Transportation Safety Board said at an afternoon briefing on the investigation...[that] the recorders showed that Flight 1549 reached a maximum altitude of 3,200 feet before losing power simultaneously in both engines before its splash-landing Thursday afternoon.

Higgins recounted excerpts from communications captured by the cockpit voice recorder beginning 90 seconds after takeoff, when the captain made a remark to the co-pilot about birds.
One second later, she said, "the sound of thumps and a rapid decrease in engine sounds" could be heard.
"The captain makes a radio call to (Air Traffic Control) calling Mayday, and reports that they hit birds, lost both engines and were returning to LaGuardia" Airport, she said.

[forget]

Nameless wonder,

We do not (at this stage) know whether the passengers were instructed to don lifevests (or IF any were even on board)

Had you taken the time to read this thread you'd have seen, several times, that the aircraft in question is certified/operated Extended Over Water, with full life vests and rafts.

[airfoilmod]

Prior

Graphic shows bird sanctuaries under the departure track of 1549. That means, well, LOTS of birds, big and brown. A/c congregate @ airfields, birds congregate at uh.... sanctuaries.

[overthewing]

So he did call Mayday.