Plane Down in Hudson River - NYC

[Rotorhead1026]

Was a Mayday called? I haven't heard that it was

I don't know if we got the complete transcript. In any case nobody can argue with the emergency response. When the Coasties say "We launched the fleet", you can bet they mean business!

[misd-agin]

Ditching switch? News reports stating that NTSB reports crew did not use it "not enough time". Anyone want to continue proclaiming the positive attributes of the ditching switch and the impact it had on this event?

Left swing on landing might indicate, for whatever reason, that the left side took a slightly higher load on touchdown then the right engine. That could be the difference as to why one engine stayed attached and one different.

As always, we'll need to wait for the investigation to be finished to understand what actions taken were correct, and if any incorrect actions were taken.

[bnt]

Here's the AP report that includes the NTSB comment that the Ditch switch was not used. The spokesperson also says that the co-pilot had a visual on geese and hoped they'd miss the plane.

[wybmaditty]

Noise Abatement LGA airport

The alleged bird strike occurred over The Bronx, which has more parkland than all the other boroughs. Coincidence maybe, but it also has a bigger density of low-income people.

If a plane departs off RWY 04 (as USAir did) at LGA and flies straight the population flown over is VERY wealthy, so you get a turn left instead. For example, when RWY 22 is in use only the VOR (offset) approach is used. The ILS is allowable but the ceiling has to be below the VOR minimums. Why? The community on approach has a very effective noise-abatement lobby.

USAirways has no luck with LGA, in fact they changed their name from USAir after two fatal incidents at LGA, like changing Windscale to Sellafield. Everyone survived thankfully this time.

[Airbubba]

Was a Mayday called? I haven't heard that it was.

The term 'Mayday' is never used in the U.S. by civilians in my experience. We don't do practice 'Pans' either. The British obsession with published R/T procedures is just not in our culture. We probably could do a little better on the radio at times but we tend not to stand on ceremony in the air.

'We've lost both engines' is more than sufficient to alert a New York controller to the urgency of the situation whether or not an emergency was formally delcared.

There are some fine differences in terms like 'minimum fuel' and 'declaring an emergency' when it comes to ATC priority but in general we express ourselves in plain language when we need help from ATC.

[airfoilmod]

misd-agin

It is possible that #1, having taken in more gooseflesh than #2, was more compromised (due to out of balance rotating mass and damaged mounts), and simply departed first. Left loop? easy. without the nacelle for support, the wing may have dragged the water, creating more left turning impetus than the starboard side had, being "supported" by the "intact" nacelle and pylon assmbly. Who's to say?

[Jetjock330]

Ditching button

According to this article, the crew did not use the ditching button.

The descent happened so fast the crew never threw the aircraft's "ditch switch," which seals off vents and holes in the fuselage to make it more seaworthy.

I doubt if this would've made any difference when looking at the pictures of the aircraft being pulled out of the water, as the underneath was ripped open.

[protectthehornet]

glider///ha

In a glider, you start the flight knowing you don't have an engine.

IN a single engine plane, you should always be looking for a place to land. Ergo, I think single engine mindset is quite vital. Having flown airliners (as pilot) out of LGA, I was always looking for a spot to land...dual engine failures do happen for many reasons.

The ditching checklist is too long.

I think a simple memory item checklist for any ""all engines out" failure should be:

trim for best glide/min safe speed for configuration

head towards PRESELECTED emergency landing spot

Radio a distress call

WARN cabin crew

IF landing in water, close outflow valve

attempt engine restart (lotsa luck!)

When I was a captain, I used to ask my copilots where they would go if both quit...virtually none of them were even considering the possibility.

Our training is so concerned with FAA mandates about engine out at V1 that we have forgotten other things that COULD happen.


as we hear more, the fecal matter will certainly impact the oscillating ventilator.

[lomapaseo]

Agree!

Good report worth the read.

From post # 790

This prescient 2002 report is worth a read:

Large Flocking Birds - An International Conflict Between Conservation and Air Safety

A couple of points from my view

the engines on the thread subject flight were probably only certified to continue running with birds up to 1.5 lbs.

The large bird strikes commented on in the referenced report 4 lbs and up left remakable damage to the aircraft as well as the engines.

Bird hazard abatement on the ground is far easier than encountering flocks of birds while they are in flight away from control procedures. See and avoid is also difficult.

[SaturnV]

Photo AFP

I think these pieces were recovered from the river, and before the plane was raised.






Photos AP

[zalt]

lomapaseo

I agree
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1437/srg_a...-01-030303.pdf
Is a great read and certainly highlighted a major problem early.

I wonder if Mayor Bloomberg and all the other local and state officials who were deseprate to be name-checked after the rescue will be as keen to explain what actions they have taken to control the bird population.

[hayessteph]

Engine intake shields

As SLF only, can I ask a possibly stupid question?

Why don't engine intakes have shields in front of them to prevent or reduce the bird strike risk? Like a household electric cooling fan has a shield in front to stop you putting your fingers into the blades when it is running. The centre of the shield would need to extend further forward than the rim (so the shield would be cone-shaped) to better help deflect the birds.

[wybmaditty]

Airflow disturbance, it was tried initially.

[justanotherflyer]

America needed something good to happen

Competence, savoir-faire and grace have been demonstrated by many of the participants in this drama, both in the air and on the surface. That is a good thing for aviation, and for America.

Many people, from the first officer to members of the flight crew, from the passengers to the civilian and city rescue crews who converged on the craft to save them, earned accolades on Thursday. But Captain Sullenberger’s efforts, like twice checking the soaked cabin for stragglers before fleeing the sinking plane himself, emerged as singularly selfless leadership of a sort that seemed so removed from things like Ponzi schemes and subprime mortgages, corporate bailouts and deflected blame.

(New York Times)

And far removed from the events of September 11, where aircraft arcing in the New York skies were harbingers of evil, darkness and sorrow, not of goodness, joy and rescue.

[fox niner]

Surprises me that even one engine is still on a wing. I would have expected them both to sheer off as they ate water. And would the minced geese meat be washed off this engine or would evidence be easily obtainable...?
I would expect this to be a sort of "straightforward" investigation.

Easier than the BA 777 at least.

Kudos to the crew! (including cabin crew that is)

[bnt]

Well, shields in front of the engines have been suggested before, and at least one design has been patented. That particular one looks as if it could seriously impede airflow and/or create a noise problem.

The material would be a huge problem, I think. That patent suggests titanium, but I don't think even that would survive a goose strike - and you could then have bits of titanium going through the engine (a Very Bad Thing). However, a modern composite material that absorbs energy and disintegrates on impact, like the nose cones on Formula One cars, might be more suitable.

[hin316]

i know various airlines differ but i'm a purser on an a320 and barring obvious conditions such as fire or blockage all exits are useable in a ditching. we used to operate 737-300/700's and the brief was the primary exits in a ditching are the overwings, and if possible the foward doors but not the rear doors i believe it was something to do with the boeing being very tail heavy.

my congratulations to the whole crew though! awsome job guys

[lomapaseo]

One thing to keep in mind while sitting in our armchairs is the crew debrief which appeared to imply that the FO was busy trying to restart engine(s)

This would have required a pitch down beyond an extended glide distance in order to get the N2's up to pressurization. As long as there are no obstacles and you have a chance to flare it works out as a win win. When I tried this in a simulator after a bird strike I got the engines lit but still ploughed into the Ocean at too steep an angle, of course being a simulator I gave all the priority to the engines and never considered the altitude

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by Capt Kremin

The debate over whether pilots who save an aircraft in this fashion are heroes, is a little silly in my opinion.

A hero is someone who makes a conscious choice to put someone else's life ahead of their own.

Captain Sully and his crew were put in a critical situation by fate. Through exemplary skill by the cockpit crew, both of them; and a well trained and disciplined cabin crew who had the passengers out of the aircraft in very short order, everyone did what they were trained to do and all the passengers got out alive.
<snip>.

I agree - and in the situation they were in doing the best for the SLF was also doing the best for themselves and vice versa.

I do have a couple of questions:

1) it looked pretty crowded on the wings. How full was the aircraft?

2) I only fly gliders, and each time I launch I have a launch failure plan. Does this happen with commercial aviation? (or indeed GA)

[Kingbird87]

This is my first post on this forum. I fly the A320 for another carrier and heard of the miraculous event prior to departure to LGA that same afternoon. I have thought of scarcely anything else since. As we arrived over the Hudson that evening, lights were illuminating the recovery as I stole a glimpse at the aircraft. I thought back many years, to the evening of September 3, 1983. I was the copilot of Air Force Rescue 95822, and we had arrived on scene as the first aircraft to the scene of the shootdown of KAL 007. The lights on the water, the gravity of the situation, took me back to that time, and I realized that Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger III had filled me again with the awe and wonder that brought me into this wonderful profession. When I was a young cadet, he was the young Lieutenant flying F-4's that I aspired to be like, every facet of this man's career has been devoted to the refinement of the profession, and I have spent the last few days again filled with awe and wonder. We all know the technical intricacies of our aircraft, the procedures we have been trained in, and the precedents of those events that have been investigated.
This was "The Event", that we all have lived with tucked beneath our facades. And in that moment, Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger III knew what he had. His altitude and low airspeed, the futility of a restart, and the fact that his energy would not allow him to make Teterboro or return to LaGuardia. It is the very general term "judgement", and his judgement included all of those forty remarkable years flying and accumulating "judgement". He was on the "perch" with a T-38, doing a high key flameout landing with an F-4, computing a visual descent point by instant glance, and using his glider training to finesse the course of events that he chose. And he chose the course, and it was magnificent. And although I am not that much younger than "Sully", I am filled with "Awe and Wonder", and like the young man I was, accept that I still can do a lot more to try to measure up to his standard. Thankyou Captain Sullenberger, for exemplifying my chosen profession in the most shining light. Thankyou for being ready, when the darkest and most private hell that we all keep within us, emerged. And thankyou most of all, for the "Awe and Wonder", that around the world, will inspire another generation of talent to infuse our profession.