Kestrel MAYDAY
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Kestrel MAYDAY
Just coming out of MAN/EGCC last night and heard that MAN CTRL 134.425 had a Kestrel MAYDAY joining them. We kept a listen out but got transfered to LON a few minutes later.
Any news anyone?
Most of all. Everyone safe and sound I hope!
Any news anyone?
Most of all. Everyone safe and sound I hope!
Posted 15:29 today.
bla bla bla etc.
No, hundreds killed, including scores of infants in school hit by aircraft. National press and tv have remained silent out of respect. 
last night
Everyone safe and sound I hope!
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Avman,
on the face of it your reply seems pretty crass. It would appear someone was either in trouble or at least deeply worried, so just because it didn't make the news ( i.e. a good outcome ) one should not take the P' & possibly deter the next guy, who really IS in trouble, from calling.
on the face of it your reply seems pretty crass. It would appear someone was either in trouble or at least deeply worried, so just because it didn't make the news ( i.e. a good outcome ) one should not take the P' & possibly deter the next guy, who really IS in trouble, from calling.
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Oh, the drama 
Somehow I doubt that when/if the sh!t hits the fan I'll consider what someone my or may not write on an internet forum before declaring a mayday, nor can I think of any other professional pilot who's likely to do so.
Purlleeeeeease
Somehow I doubt that when/if the sh!t hits the fan I'll consider what someone my or may not write on an internet forum before declaring a mayday, nor can I think of any other professional pilot who's likely to do so.
Purlleeeeeease
Double Zero, I think you failed to see the point of my cynical post. I just found it odd for a professional pilot making an enquiry (no problem with that by the way) some 20 odd hours after hearing a MAYDAY call to end his question with "everyone safe and sound I hope". My point was that if there had been anything worth reporting it would have been splashed across the front pages of the press. I've seen other curious posters blasted by pilots for much less in these forums.
And then he comes back with:
Exactly!!! 
And then he comes back with:
I guess all was O.K. As I haven't seen any references to it in the media thus far.
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Guys
I was the controller on Manch Wallasey last night when the Mayday was reluctantly declared. Nothing too exciting just the right engine showing absolutely no oil level whatsoever so the engine was shut down about 15 miles south of Nokin (possibly to protect the engine itself) which unfortunately triggers an automatic Mayday for all concerned. The aircraft was given a left hand circuit via Dayne and obviously got an expeditious arrival to land safely on 23. The guys up the front were textbook throughout.
I was the controller on Manch Wallasey last night when the Mayday was reluctantly declared. Nothing too exciting just the right engine showing absolutely no oil level whatsoever so the engine was shut down about 15 miles south of Nokin (possibly to protect the engine itself) which unfortunately triggers an automatic Mayday for all concerned. The aircraft was given a left hand circuit via Dayne and obviously got an expeditious arrival to land safely on 23. The guys up the front were textbook throughout.
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which unfortunately triggers an automatic Mayday for all concerned.
Im not questioning the actions of the crew involved, just the above statement, did ATC action the MAYDAY?
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I would assume it is an automatic MAYDAY because they had just lost 50% of their propulsion!!
A PAN, would IMHO, be sufficient for an aircraft with more than 2 engines assuming it was, as this seems to be, a precautionary shut-down.
A PAN, would IMHO, be sufficient for an aircraft with more than 2 engines assuming it was, as this seems to be, a precautionary shut-down.
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<<did ATC action the MAYDAY?>>
There is no special "action" other than providing separation from other traffic and assisting the aircraft in trouble as much as possible. Later on, airfield safety services would have been alerted if still required. That's it, no lights flash, no supervisors "take over"; the guy/lady wearing the electric hat just gets on with it...
There is no special "action" other than providing separation from other traffic and assisting the aircraft in trouble as much as possible. Later on, airfield safety services would have been alerted if still required. That's it, no lights flash, no supervisors "take over"; the guy/lady wearing the electric hat just gets on with it...
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This comes up from time to time so if you do a search you'll find more detail.
In the UK certainly, ATC has a variety of different categories of emergency that can be declared - none is called mayday or PAN. ATC decide, either on the basis of experience and professional judgement or procedures, what category to declare. ATC can declare an emergency even if the pilot does not make a mayday or PAN call. If a pilot does make an emergency call, ATC will certainly declare some level of emergency.
In the UK certainly, ATC has a variety of different categories of emergency that can be declared - none is called mayday or PAN. ATC decide, either on the basis of experience and professional judgement or procedures, what category to declare. ATC can declare an emergency even if the pilot does not make a mayday or PAN call. If a pilot does make an emergency call, ATC will certainly declare some level of emergency.
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Mayday
Why the reluctance from some people to put out a Mayday call? The Pan / Mayday dilemma is down to command choice but In the case of an engine failure / shut-down I don't think I would have a problem putting out a Mayday. It gets everyone thinking along the correct lines, gives focus and gives the Emergency Services something to do. In my experience they chomp at the bit to do something so you shouldn't feel guilty about putting them to some inconvenience (they would come out for a Pan anyway). If you later downgrade to Pan then you've already made your point and everyone will be there to help. Some places overseas might not get 'Pan' anyway.
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As an experienced yachtie, and also having done a lot of flying ( unqualified ) sitting alongside the best Test Pilots, it strikes me as a 'Pan' call too, but if the rules say 'Mayday' then what the hell, as a previous poster said, it gives the airfield services something to do, and they're there in case the situation gets worse.
I'm saying this in the hope that it won't in some perverse way be held against the Captain's record - with large companies such as this, often with a 'human resources' dept. run by little girls, nothing would surprise me.
BTW When our airfileld's Personnel Dept changed into Human Resources - briefly, while they were dumping the most useful people, so I got away with it -, I asked them "why not go the whole hog and call it meat-based guidance & maintenance assets' ? "
I was met with a blank look - there's more to this story but I'll spare you for now.
I'm saying this in the hope that it won't in some perverse way be held against the Captain's record - with large companies such as this, often with a 'human resources' dept. run by little girls, nothing would surprise me.
BTW When our airfileld's Personnel Dept changed into Human Resources - briefly, while they were dumping the most useful people, so I got away with it -, I asked them "why not go the whole hog and call it meat-based guidance & maintenance assets' ? "
I was met with a blank look - there's more to this story but I'll spare you for now.
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Nothing too exciting just the right engine showing absolutely no oil level whatsoever so the engine was shut down about 15 miles south of Nokin (possibly to protect the engine itself)
However, crew may have reported just the basics at that stage with out elaboration and once the engine was shutdown, then a Mayday is quite correct IMHO.
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Shutting down an engine with zero oil quantity
It is quite feasible to have sufficient oil to keep the engine running normally, even though the indicated oil quantity is zero. This applies to more than just Rolls Royce engines. There have been previous instances of engine shutdowns unnecessarily. Of course, zero oil pressure is something different. If the oil filler cap has not been replaced, on some engines, venting can occur to the extent that enough oil will disappear to the extent of zero indicated quantity, but sufficient oil remains for the engine to operate.
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Shirley,
If an engine is indicating no oil, it may or may not keep running, but the last thing one needs is something which may pack up or pick up; better to shut it down so one knows the situation ?
Also less damage to the afflicted engine, but that's a minor consideration.
If an engine is indicating no oil, it may or may not keep running, but the last thing one needs is something which may pack up or pick up; better to shut it down so one knows the situation ?
Also less damage to the afflicted engine, but that's a minor consideration.
Controversial, moi?
Double Zero
The point being made is that, certainly according to our SOPS, an engine is not shutdown if the oil quantity reads zero and all other parameters remain normal.
The point being made is that, certainly according to our SOPS, an engine is not shutdown if the oil quantity reads zero and all other parameters remain normal.
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Zero Indicated Oil Qty
As others have said, there is no reason to shut an engine down due to an indication of zero oil quantity IF oil pressure and oil temperature remains within limits. One would have to suppose that the operating crew would have been well aware of that and only reported loss of oil quantity to ATC. Whether a MAYDAY or PAN is declared is purely up to the crew and their assessment of the situation.