Kestrel MAYDAY
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Lets face facts here.
In a twin engined aeroplane, the failure of one engine constitutes an emergency situation, hence a 'Mayday' is certainly appropriate.
FAA....yup, with them, too.
Mandatory.
In a twin engined aeroplane, the failure of one engine constitutes an emergency situation, hence a 'Mayday' is certainly appropriate.
FAA....yup, with them, too.
Mandatory.
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The most worrying part of this thread, is that you Sky Gods can't agree on which was the correct course of action. One of the underlying opinions of most of the threads you read on Pprune, is that the captains decision is final.
What happens if you have a a less senior captain in the left seat, when two capt's are operating? What happens if you have a 56 year old x captain Zeus in the R/H seat and a 38 year old Apollo in the left? Which ego wins there?
What happens if you have a a less senior captain in the left seat, when two capt's are operating? What happens if you have a 56 year old x captain Zeus in the R/H seat and a 38 year old Apollo in the left? Which ego wins there?
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Looks like the flight was a 'maintainance flight'?
Just for the record.
16:43 11/01/09
ACARS mode: 1 Aircraft reg: G-JMAA [Boeing B753]
Message label: ** Block id: @ Msg no: 120f
Flight id: MT753M [] [Thomas Cook]
Message content:-
SBS-1 Callsign: TCX753M
Just for the record.
16:43 11/01/09
ACARS mode: 1 Aircraft reg: G-JMAA [Boeing B753]
Message label: ** Block id: @ Msg no: 120f
Flight id: MT753M [] [Thomas Cook]
Message content:-
SBS-1 Callsign: TCX753M
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Litebulbs, putting to one side for a moment your great knowledge of Greek Godology, you are demonstrating perfectly what worries me far more that the fact that two pilots may have differing opinions about the situation under discussion. As I said in in an earlier post
You seem to want a one-size fits all answer to the question when there isn't one.The thread doesn't present all of the information that was available to the flight crew so what you see is a discussion about individual opinions and slightly differing company procedures. I'm a great believer in having (and following) procedures but I don't think you can writew a manual that covers every eventuality - so I would like to feel that the driver of an aircraft that I am on is able to make an appropriate judgement based on the available information, operating procedures and guidance. What you are seeing here is a discussion of some of the thought processes that will go on in a pilot's mind when faced with an engine failure.
As for Captains Zeus and Apollo, well I hope that all the money spent on CRM training in the last few years will help them to do what's best for the aircraft and everyone on it whilst letting them each make their optimum contribution to handling the situation.
PS - I see your profile says you are an avionics engineer. Have you had a bad experience with some Greek pilots? Oh, and let's hope they never roster Zeus and Artemis together!
Originally Posted by me
The business of any particular situation being an 'automatic mayday' or whatever, in both ATC and on the flightdeck, is a result of what might be called corporate nervousness. We are moving toward an environment where everything has a procedure - if the procedure is followed then all is OK (almost irrespective of the outcome).
In the old days we trained professionals with skills to assess a situation and to make appropriate decisions ....
In the old days we trained professionals with skills to assess a situation and to make appropriate decisions ....
As for Captains Zeus and Apollo, well I hope that all the money spent on CRM training in the last few years will help them to do what's best for the aircraft and everyone on it whilst letting them each make their optimum contribution to handling the situation.
PS - I see your profile says you are an avionics engineer. Have you had a bad experience with some Greek pilots? Oh, and let's hope they never roster Zeus and Artemis together!
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Loss of one engine in a twin engine airplane is a MAYDAY
If one follows the logic of 411A's point of view no one would ever take-off in a single engine airplane, or is that considered a Mayday situation from take-off to touchdown?
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If one follows the logic of 411A's point of view no one would ever take-off in a single engine airplane, or is that considered a Mayday situation from take-off to touchdown?
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Old Fella
you are lookng at things entirely the wrong way. A single engined aircraft is designed to fly on... one engine.
A twin is designed to fly on two, but can continue on one in an emergency situation.
A Mayday can always be downgraded - the fact is ATC will be more concerned with the info you give them about the emergency than what prefix you use. ATC will then tailor the response to fit the scenario.
If a twin has a single engine failure, it doesn't matter to ATC if you call PAN or MAYDAY - the airfield emergency services response will be the same - based on the symptoms that the crew gives.
As far as ATC (certainly in the UK) is concerned, a PAN will give you priority and a no delay approach.
A MAYDAY will give you the same, but also allows the use of the non-operating runway.
As for someone who earlier said that unlike a PAN, a MAYDAY will mean that everyone else on frequency will say nothing unless called by ATC, that is wrong.
Normal service continues for other aircraft on the frequency, even if a MAYDAY is taking place. If ATC want you to be radio silent, they will tell you.
Although obviously affording an emergency aircraft priority, I always work on the basis that it is just another flight - to do otherwise is inviting myself to have an incident elsewhere in my sector because I am maybe getting too drawn in to one aircraft.
you are lookng at things entirely the wrong way. A single engined aircraft is designed to fly on... one engine.
A twin is designed to fly on two, but can continue on one in an emergency situation.
A Mayday can always be downgraded - the fact is ATC will be more concerned with the info you give them about the emergency than what prefix you use. ATC will then tailor the response to fit the scenario.
If a twin has a single engine failure, it doesn't matter to ATC if you call PAN or MAYDAY - the airfield emergency services response will be the same - based on the symptoms that the crew gives.
As far as ATC (certainly in the UK) is concerned, a PAN will give you priority and a no delay approach.
A MAYDAY will give you the same, but also allows the use of the non-operating runway.
As for someone who earlier said that unlike a PAN, a MAYDAY will mean that everyone else on frequency will say nothing unless called by ATC, that is wrong.
Normal service continues for other aircraft on the frequency, even if a MAYDAY is taking place. If ATC want you to be radio silent, they will tell you.
Although obviously affording an emergency aircraft priority, I always work on the basis that it is just another flight - to do otherwise is inviting myself to have an incident elsewhere in my sector because I am maybe getting too drawn in to one aircraft.
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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Our company SOPs are MAYDAY for a power unit failure, downgraded at our discretion when we are sure there are no further problems.
VH
VH
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Anotherthing
The safety record for engine out light twins is historically poorer than many think. Loss of one engine in a light twin does not mean (generally) that one has ample time to continue the flight to exercise more choice in a landing site. It means, Mayday and land immediately.
Also, the first thing ATC will do (generally, assuming the problem is not comm. related) is assign a new and discrete freq to the troubled a/c.
It isn't good procedure to focus attention on one a/c when the main frequency cares for many, neither does it serve the emer. a/c.
Also, the first thing ATC will do (generally, assuming the problem is not comm. related) is assign a new and discrete freq to the troubled a/c.
It isn't good procedure to focus attention on one a/c when the main frequency cares for many, neither does it serve the emer. a/c.
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For Gods sake. He declared an emergency. Be it a Pan or a Mayday. Who cares! One engine operative on a two engine aircraft IS an emergency. He may not fall out of the sky but he did want some assistance. Captains choice. None of you were there, so you are not well placed to comment.
If anyone on this site did know anything, they would know that he had been in constant contact through maintrol and between them, they had taken the best course of action to protect a very valuable piece of kit.
I think if we were to analyse how many engine failures declare a Mayday or a Pan, I know where I would put my money. Yet again, too many folks postulating without knowing all the facts.
They put the machine on the ground, all happy, all safe, JOB DONE!
If anyone on this site did know anything, they would know that he had been in constant contact through maintrol and between them, they had taken the best course of action to protect a very valuable piece of kit.
I think if we were to analyse how many engine failures declare a Mayday or a Pan, I know where I would put my money. Yet again, too many folks postulating without knowing all the facts.
They put the machine on the ground, all happy, all safe, JOB DONE!
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airfoilmod
If you read my post properly, I never said that a aingle engine failure in a twin should not be a MAYDAY. I was replying to (and disagreeing with) Old Fella who inferred that a single engine failure in a twin was the same as flying in a single engine aircraft!!
As for a seperate frequency for the Mayday aircraft, not always the best option (and is not a general rule for ATC to do, as you allude to) - each case needs to be looked at in isolation. If the frequency is busy, then yes a good idea, if it is only moderately busy, the drawbacks of having two controllers working aircraft on different frequencies in one piece of airspace often outweighs the advantages.
If you read my post properly, I never said that a aingle engine failure in a twin should not be a MAYDAY. I was replying to (and disagreeing with) Old Fella who inferred that a single engine failure in a twin was the same as flying in a single engine aircraft!!
As for a seperate frequency for the Mayday aircraft, not always the best option (and is not a general rule for ATC to do, as you allude to) - each case needs to be looked at in isolation. If the frequency is busy, then yes a good idea, if it is only moderately busy, the drawbacks of having two controllers working aircraft on different frequencies in one piece of airspace often outweighs the advantages.
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This nonsense thread is a prime example of how PPRuNe has gone down the tubes. Remember the days when this site was informative and not full of cr@p threads like this? Four pages of arguing over a pan or a mayday for an engine shutdown? Honestly. It's sad.
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I wouldn't bother reading it. This thread proves to me why I read Pprune less and less. Arguing about a Commanders decision without any of the facts. Yeah, nice one.
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F/E's to muck up the program
411A, again you jumped in "hook, line and sinker". I said nothing about aircraft categories. You obviously could not resist showing, again, your disdain for Flight Engineers. Please refer to item #21 to see what I believe, if you can lower yourself to do so. 
anotherthing, I was not looking at things in the wrong way, just giving 411A the opportunity to do what he did, i.e. put down Flight Engineers as he has done on many previous occasions.
anotherthing, I was not looking at things in the wrong way, just giving 411A the opportunity to do what he did, i.e. put down Flight Engineers as he has done on many previous occasions.