Kestrel MAYDAY
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I don't understand why anyone would question a mayday call if you had to shut one engine down in a twin.
Skippers decision, Engine dead. Mayday please. You can always downgrade it if needs be.
Skippers decision, Engine dead. Mayday please. You can always downgrade it if needs be.
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oneowl,
For an aircraft operating with 50% power, it is an automatic Full Emergency for ATC - NOT an automatic MAYDAY. Only the commander can declare a MAYDAY or PAN. Suggest you consult your LCE.
For an aircraft operating with 50% power, it is an automatic Full Emergency for ATC - NOT an automatic MAYDAY. Only the commander can declare a MAYDAY or PAN. Suggest you consult your LCE.
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PPL here, so please be gentle.
Isn't one difference between pan and mayday the runway state, as in pan doesn't guarantee a sterile runway and mayday does?
My personal experience only extends to light twins and I realise that these are very different to 757s, but were I on one engine, I would wish for a sterile runway, as I wouldn't fancy a one engined go around and diversion in the event of a runway incident.
Isn't one difference between pan and mayday the runway state, as in pan doesn't guarantee a sterile runway and mayday does?
My personal experience only extends to light twins and I realise that these are very different to 757s, but were I on one engine, I would wish for a sterile runway, as I wouldn't fancy a one engined go around and diversion in the event of a runway incident.
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Final 3 greens. At major airports, emergencies will be given priority but, inevitably, there will be traffic ahead; you simply cannot close a runway for an indefinite period. ATC will provide more separation to ensure a landing clearance but there is no instruction I was ever aware of which specified what you have described..
I think a good few people on here don't understand that Mayday and PAN are simply communication codes to indicate to ATC that a problem exists. Subsequent action taken by ATC to alert emergency services then depends on what the crew tell them about the problem.
I don't think any pilot would be criticised for calling a Mayday which was later found to be inappropriate. Better to be safe than sorry.
I think a good few people on here don't understand that Mayday and PAN are simply communication codes to indicate to ATC that a problem exists. Subsequent action taken by ATC to alert emergency services then depends on what the crew tell them about the problem.
I don't think any pilot would be criticised for calling a Mayday which was later found to be inappropriate. Better to be safe than sorry.
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Surely radio silence does not happen unless ATC specifically advise, or maybe the rules have changed?
My CAP413 states: The aircraft in distress or the station in control of a distress incident may impose silence either on all stations in the area or on any particular station that interferes with distress transmissions. In either case, the message should take the following form....
To me that means radio silence is not automatic..
My CAP413 states: The aircraft in distress or the station in control of a distress incident may impose silence either on all stations in the area or on any particular station that interferes with distress transmissions. In either case, the message should take the following form....
To me that means radio silence is not automatic..
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By radio silence i mean, all other aircraft on freq should not transmit unless spoken to by ATC. Sorry, should have made that clearer. So if you're a pilot and you hear someone declare a mayday, shut up!
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This whole thread is just a giant "so what".
Nothing much happened, obviously, as it didn't make the news.
ATC and pilots operated according to SOPs, as they are trained to do. Why is anyone surprised about that?
Definitions of PAN and MAYDAY are freely available on the web, so no debate there. It's really very simple:
1.2 States of Emergency
1.2.1 The states of emergency are classified as follows:
a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and
of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
1.2.2 The pilot should make the appropriate emergency call as follows:
a) Distress ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’
b) Urgency ‘PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN’
(http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF)
Just parse the above according to your company SOPs...
Nothing much happened, obviously, as it didn't make the news.
ATC and pilots operated according to SOPs, as they are trained to do. Why is anyone surprised about that?
Definitions of PAN and MAYDAY are freely available on the web, so no debate there. It's really very simple:
1.2 States of Emergency
1.2.1 The states of emergency are classified as follows:
a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and
of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
1.2.2 The pilot should make the appropriate emergency call as follows:
a) Distress ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’
b) Urgency ‘PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN’
(http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF)
Just parse the above according to your company SOPs...
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HD
Thanks for your comment.
With your background, you obviously know a lot more about this than I do.
There was a comment on the famous '3 engined 744" thread that implied the runway was "assured" for a mayday aircraft before it began it's approach, as no departing traffic would be allowed.
Possibly I misunderstood that comment, so now I am englightened, thanks for that.
Thanks for your comment.
With your background, you obviously know a lot more about this than I do.
There was a comment on the famous '3 engined 744" thread that implied the runway was "assured" for a mayday aircraft before it began it's approach, as no departing traffic would be allowed.
Possibly I misunderstood that comment, so now I am englightened, thanks for that.
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ATCO Two
Thank you for your kind words. Let's not get too technical between Full Emergencies and Maydays, my actions would have been no different regardless of what the pilot "declared" based on the information presented to me. For the record it was the pilot who declared the Mayday. Without being too blunt I will consult my LCE, may I suggest you Fu*k right off and we'll see how you cope in a similar situation
Thank you for your kind words. Let's not get too technical between Full Emergencies and Maydays, my actions would have been no different regardless of what the pilot "declared" based on the information presented to me. For the record it was the pilot who declared the Mayday. Without being too blunt I will consult my LCE, may I suggest you Fu*k right off and we'll see how you cope in a similar situation
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In the case of an engine failure / shut-down I don't think I would have a problem putting out a Mayday
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Rubbish. Coming out with comments like that are nonsense. Why did it fail? Is there a chance to other one is about to go? Have you got a fire? etc.etc.
Saying that all engine failures should only be a PAN is nonsense. It is the commanders decision at the time and none of us should second guess it. You do what is appropriate at that time. If that means you chuck in a MAYDAY, then so be it.
Saying that all engine failures should only be a PAN is nonsense. It is the commanders decision at the time and none of us should second guess it. You do what is appropriate at that time. If that means you chuck in a MAYDAY, then so be it.
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I wouldn't have shut the engine down unless other parameters confirmed the engine was cooking. Idle it, take the best bits of the Engine Failure/shutown checklist and the best bits of the One Engine Inop landing checklist and divert to nearest suitable airport. Pan call is sufficient according to my companies part A. I remember that a Boeing test flight crew had to shut an engine down whilst etops certing the 737ng (700). The engineer in the back requested the shutdown. They limped back to Boeing Field for nearly 3 hours on the remaining. They didn't tell atc anything just that they were operating at reduced speed. Obviously they could have cranked up the cooked engine again if needed. I really hope the kestrel engine was completely cooked and that other parameters were out of limits before they shutdown, or I believe they unneccesarily risked a lot of lives.
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Are you about to crash?
Yes, the commander gets to decide what state of operations is notified - either, I am in a state of operations that is currently safe but requires expedited handling to minimise the exposure to further risk (Pan Pan), or, I am in immediate danger of losing control of my aircraft or the situation (mayday). It is possible that an engine failure may lead to the second operational state, but in most situations it should not - if it did, then the whole certification bases and training requirements would be based on a false premise.
I think that you carefully analyse what situation you face and make an appropriate and relevant call. I have severe reservations about this theory that a Mayday call is the universal call of first choice - I think that approach is as silly as that where people refuse to declare their situation at all!
I think that you carefully analyse what situation you face and make an appropriate and relevant call. I have severe reservations about this theory that a Mayday call is the universal call of first choice - I think that approach is as silly as that where people refuse to declare their situation at all!
I am drawn to the continued arguments year after year on this board about the use of PAN vs MAYDAY.
I mean the arguments are endless and for what purpose?
If it is a subjective call then why argue about the actions of a specfic Captain after each event.
If it shouldn't be a subjective call then where is it so written?
Does something need to be changed? if so where?
I mean the arguments are endless and for what purpose?
If it is a subjective call then why argue about the actions of a specfic Captain after each event.
If it shouldn't be a subjective call then where is it so written?
Does something need to be changed? if so where?
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4 dogs/A37575......Completely agree.
If the 'MAYDAY first' school (of which there are many) doesn't like the definition which is 100% clear, then (internationally) redefine it. Otherwise, using MAYDAY for less than MAYDAY (as per) definition devalues its meaning.
An twin-engined aircraft that is certified to operate on 1 engine, unless there are additional threatening circumstances, is not 'threatened by serious and/or imminent danger'. It's a PAN, IMHO
I
If the 'MAYDAY first' school (of which there are many) doesn't like the definition which is 100% clear, then (internationally) redefine it. Otherwise, using MAYDAY for less than MAYDAY (as per) definition devalues its meaning.
An twin-engined aircraft that is certified to operate on 1 engine, unless there are additional threatening circumstances, is not 'threatened by serious and/or imminent danger'. It's a PAN, IMHO
I
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In my last airline - how do other gauges tell you if the engines "cooking"?
Indication of oil pressure loss with normal oil pressure/temp is most likely a gauge/transmitter failure. If oil pressure/temp are not normal it indicates loss of oil quantity.
Are you saying with loss of oil pressure and high temperature you'd continue running the engine? And that you'd run the engine until it was "completely cooked" before shutting it down?
Indication of oil pressure loss with normal oil pressure/temp is most likely a gauge/transmitter failure. If oil pressure/temp are not normal it indicates loss of oil quantity.
Are you saying with loss of oil pressure and high temperature you'd continue running the engine? And that you'd run the engine until it was "completely cooked" before shutting it down?
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The business of any particular situation being an 'automatic mayday' or whatever, in both ATC and on the flightdeck, is a result of what might be called corporate nervousness. We are moving toward an environment where everything has a procedure - if the procedure is followed then all is OK (almost irrespective of the outcome).
In the old days we trained professionals with skills to assess a situation and to make appropriate decisions - admittedly the outcome wasn't always ideal but that's life. Nowdays there is so much pressure to shorten training that we are training people what to if X or Y or Z happens rather than giving them professional skills to understand what is happening and deal with it. But at least it doesn't take so long to train them.
In years gone by I recall being faced with a beautiful summer's day, a gentle warm breeze along the runway, and the pilot of a twin-engined aircraft reporting, "just for my information really, a precautionary engine shutdown as it joined the visual circuit downwind. I put a local standby on. No drama.
A rather different situation to another that I recall on a stormy night with a wet runway and stonking crosswind and a hint in the pilot's voice that he was working hard. That one got a full emergency.
Either way I was poised to assess any further information that came to light and upgrade the category of emergency (and corresponding actions that were taken on the airfield and elsewhere) if I believed it was necessary. I always thought that was one of the things I was paid for.
Today I don't have the ability to make such choices. 50% or more power loss and I have to put on a full emergency. I guess that's progress.
In the old days we trained professionals with skills to assess a situation and to make appropriate decisions - admittedly the outcome wasn't always ideal but that's life. Nowdays there is so much pressure to shorten training that we are training people what to if X or Y or Z happens rather than giving them professional skills to understand what is happening and deal with it. But at least it doesn't take so long to train them.
In years gone by I recall being faced with a beautiful summer's day, a gentle warm breeze along the runway, and the pilot of a twin-engined aircraft reporting, "just for my information really, a precautionary engine shutdown as it joined the visual circuit downwind. I put a local standby on. No drama.
A rather different situation to another that I recall on a stormy night with a wet runway and stonking crosswind and a hint in the pilot's voice that he was working hard. That one got a full emergency.
Either way I was poised to assess any further information that came to light and upgrade the category of emergency (and corresponding actions that were taken on the airfield and elsewhere) if I believed it was necessary. I always thought that was one of the things I was paid for.
Today I don't have the ability to make such choices. 50% or more power loss and I have to put on a full emergency. I guess that's progress.