Does MPL threaten operational safety?

[Foxy Loxy]

JW411,

Whilst I don't dispute the experiences you've posted, there is the other side of the coin to consider. For many pilots (I'm speaking from my own experience here), learning RT is one of the hardest disciplines to master. Thus, when the chips are down, the pilot is under stress, and effective RT is one of the first things to go by the wayside. The longer it takes for an ATCO to ascertain what the problem is, the longer it will be before we can render any help required.

Besides, there is more to the MPL than this. I just queried it because of that aspect of my professional interest. And Lost man standing is right that even in the sim, there isn't much realism - more of an ideal.

[JW411]

Foxy Loxy:

I note from your profile that you are an ATCO. Can I please ask you what experience you have of talking to other ATC units on a global basis from the cockpit of an aeroplane?

I managed 46 years.

Things have improved enormously since I started. A lot of readers out there will remember the old days before SSB when we were required to monitor HF on AM throughout the flight (no SELCAL then) and also the difficulties of communicating and passing position reports when the whole of Africa and the Indian Sub-Continent were all using the same frequency.

I can well remember those days. I was faced with the problem when I was 22 years old and the only solution was (is) "to get your ear in". I could take you to a hundred places where you simply would not have a clue for the first hour or two.

I don't really want to get into the MPL debate per se; if they are well and properly trained, then they will be fine. I have spent a lot of my time teaching in a multi-lingual environment and no one nation or licence group has the perfect answer to the ATC problem.

The only secret to communicating is no secret at all. It is called "getting used to it" and my experience is that the licence held has b*gger all to do with it.

P.S. I do hope you can speak Cornish.

[hawkerpilot]

What is not mentioned so far is what all this is going to mean for the grey haired folks on the left :

Flying for one of those typical airline annex flightschool type of companies I see a daily influx of guys and girls, who payed a huge amount of money to get a typerating and get very little money in return(they call that salary).

Allthough very enthusiatic youngsters and great people (most) on a personal level, most are a absolute nightmare to have as a collegue when things are only beginning to go wrong by adding a bit foul wx, a few innocent caution lights and or unwilling Flight Director/autopilots.

The trainingfolks sign them off with min time and then it is time for you to continue being a training pilot, though not payed for it.

Now understand me well, I do not mind to help them down the path of ever increasing wisdom and experience, I have enjoyed the same from old grey skippers as well, but that is something different compared to the extra workload I get teaching the kids to fly/operate in this enviroment. That just should not be part of my job. With the ever decreasing turnarounds and slot contraints and busy ATC with multiple stepdown profiles , max duty-min rest beancounter schedules etc, I do not need to babysit as well and see them messing around with switches, missing calls etc. not to mention you have a full bladder, you worry to bits in your absence, hoping nothing goes wrong while being in the toilet.

And then you have the odd day, you are lucky to fly with one of the more experienced fo and or a newby with lots of time in GA beforehand, and the difference shows.

I did it the hard way, worked myself up, and have had lots of benefit from that experience.My first airline required 4000 hrs for command and allthough the time seemed long on the right, I did learn a lot.

Nowadays 1500 hrs is the time for an upgrade and the beancounters are trying to convince the public that is safe.

Meaning that Captain and co together have a total experience of 1700 hrs

But then again, what is my opinion worth..............

[Foxy Loxy]

JW411

I note from your profile that you are an ATCO. Can I please ask you what experience you have of talking to other ATC units on a global basis from the cockpit of an aeroplane?

Not 46 years as you have. I am 28. But, yes, I have as it happens.

The only secret to communicating is no secret at all. It is called "getting used to it" and my experience is that the licence held has b*gger all to do with it.

Experience.... that word again! "Getting used to it" sounds very much like "experience" to me! How would one "get used to it" otherwise? For real? Where it matters?

P.S. I do hope you can speak Cornish.

Not yet, but I'm a quick learner

I'm not here to defend myself personally btw. I asked a question which, in my opinion, needs addressing if the MPL is to be workable in an operational day-to-day environment.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Understanding R/T is something that takes time to build up. Ane fule kno's that.

A sim is in no way shape or form a good experience building place to learn it.

It shouldn't take someone long to work it out, but most "traditionally" trained CPL's will have an advantage over someone with naff all experience of real ATC in a dynamic environment.

They might still be rubbish at it, but they are one step ahead.

[nuclear weapon]

Can anyone please say here exactly how much this Mpl programme cost as I am under no illusion it will be fairly costly compared to the current modular or integrated route.
I am a working pilot myself but trying to gaze into the future how will private guys afford the training in an expensive simulator.

[BEagle]

The MPL is seen as airline and type-specific. So it won't be possible for self-funded wannabees to take the MPL course unless an airline is also involved.


The only way the MPL will succeed is if airlines start paying for their pilot training again instead of relying on desperate 'self-improvers' or poaching pilots from other airlines.....

[Pittspilot]

How much?

@NC
The student is billed 60K Euro for 45h SEP JAR PPL plus 10h SEP IFR, 15h MEP IFR both without checkride. Add some 140h FNPT and Sim including a type rating on either A320 or B737.

And yes, 65h total flight time do not provide enough experience to stay calm when things get rough.

Mit Hals- und Beinbruch

Pittspilot

[fireflybob]

The only way the MPL will succeed is if airlines start paying for their pilot training again instead of relying on desperate 'self-improvers' or poaching pilots from other airlines.....

Beagle has, quite rightly in my opinion, focussed on the crux of this issue. Airlines should be much more proactive about where their new pilots are coming from, selecting and training same. As one who was originally sponsored (back in 1970 - with an agreement to pay £,1000, would you believe, back over the first 5 years of employment) I am quite appalled at the level of debt which our new pilots are encumbered with to enter our profession. But that's the way the world is at the moment - "too many worker drones in the collective".

As an aside the original meaning of the word "mortgage" means "debt until death"!. It seems many these days are indeed mortgaged until death - where's the freedom in that?

[Guttn]

"Airline specific training" is mentioned here, and that`s the heart of the MPL. The student is trained, under the umbrella of a specific airline, for the MPL. This is all fine and dandy as long as things are on track, and the track is stable... Problem is, that the only airline who was doing the MPL (as far as I can remember) was Sterling. And they aren`t around anymore. So where does this leave the MPL pilots rained by Sterling - and according to Sterling SOPs from day 1? My guess would be having to fork up some more hard cash to get a CPL/IR/ME-A to have a spitting chance at landing another job . That`s the industry for you; it`s a long way to the top if you wanna rock`n`roll

[tbavprof]

Another case of common language proving to be a barrier. In east Asia the push is on, hot and heavy. And the interpretation of "airline specific training" definitely is not interpreted to mean the same as "training for a specific airline." Check out some of the self-funded Indian (and other) MPL students at Philippine flight schools. It's touted as the wave of the future in training; sponsored, funded, or not. Paying lip-service to following a JAA syllabus.

What starts out as questionable practice pushed by EU operators for economic purposes can easily become a global nightmare.

[ZFT]

What starts out as questionable practice pushed by EU operators for economic purposes can easily become a global nightmare.

1) EU operators didn't push for this. Captain Dieter Harms IATA Senior Advisor was the driving force.

2) MPL was NEVER for 'economic purposes'. The intent was for a competency based program that would be more efficient in terms of timeframe. Experience to date indicates an MPL programme is more expensive than the traditional route.

As to your global nightmare comment........

[arba]

IMHO , "more efficient in terms of time-frame" is an "economic properties"

[Pugilistic Animus]

MPL conceived by Misses Tooey- therefore all Hooey

[gibas]

Let's think ahead!!!!

Hi guys!

I won't lose much time talking about A/P's, A/THR, Stick&rudder, etc....
The situation WE, as pilots, have come is unacceptable. Microwaves cook fast too, but the results are unhealthy and of low quality. Anyway that's not the point!!!!
Let's stop thinking as tech. top guns and discussing which background or professional progress is better.
Main thing is MONEY $$$$.
Money talks..... Who do you think this brights ideas (MCC's, pilots paying for flying, etc...) came from?...... That's Right__________ INDUSTRY.

Companies CEO's, marketing/financial dept. guys just can't stand that bloody aircraft drivers get "so much cash" at the end of the year.
How can they fight that?
Very simple, you press authorities to create such fast miracles as MPL.
You convice some pilots (sorry for their mums) to sign as postholders and take care of the "boys".
You convice the EU brussels guys to not even ask for High School certificate to acces this "daddie's son job" (JAA, just need basic ground school for an ATP).
You convince established pilots that paying for a type rating is great, because you are doing what you like, flying, yes mate they do us a Big Favour.

And after all, there are some guys who call themselves pilots who support such measures and innovations!!!!

The major enemy for pilots are..... Pilots. We are guilty, as long as we keep on looking the other way thinking about buying sport cars and gorgeous houses.
Wait and see how long this will last!!

Sorry guys, but I lost my hope!

[Intruder]

The student is billed 60K Euro for 45h SEP JAR PPL plus 10h SEP IFR, 15h MEP IFR both without checkride. Add some 140h FNPT and Sim including a type rating on either A320 or B737.

For about the same price, maybe this program is a better deal overall. The student gets actual ratings that he can use in the future:

The 200 hour challenge

BY THOMAS B. HAINES
EDITOR IN CHIEF

AOPA PILOT, NOVEMBER 2008 (page 40)

At 200 hours were you ready for an ATP level checkride? Ready to fly as a first officer on an airliner? Ready to look over your left shoulder at paying passengers? Were those paying passengers ready for your next landing?

For most of us the answer to all would be no. But can it be done? Should it be done? Officials at the Commercial Airline Pilot Training (CAPT) Program say, yes, and yes. And more than 100 pilots now flying for airlines are proof that it can happen. "We're trying to break the old mold that you need 1,200 flight hours" to fly for an airline, says Chris Kokai, executive director of the CAPT Program. Based at Flagler County Airport just north of Daytona Beach, Florida, the program is owned by Georgia based FTS International. FTS purchased the program from Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in August 2006.

While the U.S. training market is in the doldrums, international demand for airline pilots is still soaring. As of September, CAPT was training about 200 students, 185 of them from China. The balance are either recent college graduates seeking an airline career or career changers chucking the desk job for their dream of flying the line. The CAPT Program's $100,000 price tag is certainly a deterrent for some, admits Kokai, but the quality and efficiency of the program allows the student to move into a career quickly, often with a leg up on those who choose a more traditional training route. For one thing, the CAPT students exit the program with a Boeing MD 90 type rating. Although not many airlines fly the MD-90, the fact that the students have been trained on big iron systems and glass cockpits eases the training burden on the hiring airline.

How can this be?
Thinking back to my own flight training and watching my 15 year old daughter work her way through a conventional training program, I find it hard to believe that students with as, few as 200 hours are saddling up a 150,000 pound, 150 passenger airliner after passing an ATP level type rating course.

The key, says Kokai, is a structured training course designed to take zero time students through private pilot and commercial certificates while adding on multiengine and instrument ratings in 200 hours. Intense emotional and psychological screening removes from consideration students not suited to that style of training. The company accepts only about 70 percent of the students who apply. Most students come to the program with zero time.

Students, who are required to wear uniforms, are in training six days a week. A typical day starts with a one hour prebrief; a 1.5 hour flight; another 1.5 hours riding in the backseat acting as a copilot while another student flies, and a one hour debrief. The backseat student has a push to talk switch and is expected to act as a copilot, managing radios, charts, navigation, and checklists. In addition, the students spend several additional hours daily in ground school and studying. An instructor facilitates the briefings, but the students are expected to score themselves and their partnersan effort to assure that they are used to challenging the authority of the captain. In cockpit video cameras prove to be powerful tools in helping students understand weaknesses both in flying and in crew coordination. "We don't train you to pass a checkride, we train you to be a captain in a Transport category jet with command authority," explains Kokai.

The students move seamlessly through ratings and certificates. "We wouldn't even solo them except the FAA requires it," he says.

The school utilizes a fleet of new Cirrus SR20s for primary and instrument training and the initial parts of the commercial training. The balance of the commercial training and the multiengine training is done in new Piper Seminoles with Avidyne Entegra panels nearly identical to those in the SR20s. The school is evaluating the purchase of various turbine airplanes to give students experience in turbine operations. From there it's a short hike to the right seat of an airliner, perhaps as little as 12 months from when the student first set foot in an airplane.

E mail the author at [email protected].

[nuclear weapon]

I the training is airline specific does it mean the initial part of the training will be generic i.e done on an fnpt2 or a similar sim then the latter stages on a category d sim of the particular aircraft the airline wants you to fly. The fnpt2 can be used to learn basic tracking as of ndbs, vors etc then the emrgency procedures and and company sops in the latter stages on a category d sim which is a lot more expensive.
The initial part can be used to weed out those who may not be able to complete the course.

[manrow]

All of you with 'experience' demonstrate your bigotry in suggesting that anyone with less experience is dangerous.

The whole point about appropriate training is that lessons YOU learnt in operations over many years can now be included in the best initiation lessons so that we can inculcate good habits to individuals which maybe the rest of us never experienced; isn't that a good idea?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Don't be daft. No training can compete with a well trained person who also has experience.

Training is one thing, experience another. Neither can replace eachother.

[Huck]

Sit down with a professional concert pianist, then, and ask him to teach you the lessons he's learned in his career.

Then you can perform. No need for time in seat after all.