Does MPL threaten operational safety?

[Bealzebub]

The whole point about appropriate training is that lessons YOU learnt in operations over many years can now be included in the best initiation lessons so that we can inculcate good habits to individuals which maybe the rest of us never experienced; isn't that a good idea?

Yes it most certainly is! You never stop learning from the mistakes of others, but perhaps as, if not more importantly, you learn from your own mistakes. There are very few pilots who will not have a story to tell of the times they frightened themselves and learned some cold hard lessons. The problem comes when these low experienced pilots who are themselves inevitably going to make similar serious lapses of judgment do so with 200 other people bolted onto the back.

Experience will come to everybody eventually. The flight deck of an airliner can be an artifically comfortable environment where the world waiting to bite you, can seem a lot further away than it might really be.

It isn't the CRM or training course aptitudes that bother some of the more experienced contributors ( or bigots?) It is the fact that such low experience levels probably mean you haven't had the opportunity to frighten yourself yet, but one day you will.

[Northbeach]

Spot on man..................

Bealzebub,

I want to commend you on your observation-boy is this following statement of yours ever the truth!

“The flight deck of an airliner can be an artificially comfortable environment where the world waiting to bite you, can seem a lot further away than it might really be.”

Isn’t it amazing how we can drone along for years and thousands of hours staring at the same gauges/instrument/FMS and it all feels so very comfortable and routine. But it doesn’t take very much and the whole thing becomes a strange raging beast! The American 757 in Cali comes to mind, as do many other accidents. I have seen this same scenario happen many times in the simulator with experienced crews.

Listening to the final few moments of a doomed airliner’s ATC communications I am struck by how often the crew is mere seconds away from death and they have no idea that they are about to perish.

MPL or no MPL, Ab-initio or not, self-improver or military; the political and financial forces driving MPL will not be persuaded by the likes of me. “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward”. Captain, your work load is about to go up again.

[Northbeach]

Another day at work..........

This one was such a wild ride I stapled the ATIS in my logbook as a keepsake. K### ARR ATIS F 0734Z SPECIAL 17032G45 10SM BKN025 BKN040 OVC100 08/03 A2915 WIND SHEAR ADZYS IN EFCT PILOTS REPORT GAINS AND LOSSES 15 KNOTS ON FINAL. The landing runway was 16, but in reality the wind was shifting around 30-40 degrees, steady at 32 gusting 45 and higher. When the storm was done ¾ of a million people were out of power many for the better part of a week. When we were walking out of the terminal windows were blowing out scattering glass. They shut the airport down and the winds eventually peaked at over 70 knots. Many of you have flow in and landed in worse conditions. How do you think the MPL pilot on their first month on the line is going to react? Anybody going to let them have the landing?

[rcl7700]

I am not initially in favor of the MPL or the mentioned MD90 program because it leaves pilots with the need for an advanced cockpit and a Captain. I don't think that getting typed with 250 hrs TT can substitute at least a year as a CFI in the formation of a future airline pilot.

What if having finished your MPL, your airline has to let you go? Who would hire you with 60 hrs TT, and an A320 type rating with 0 hours? After all of that money and effort you don't even qualify to fly a 172 for traffic watch.

Unless you find an MD-90 operator desperate for pilots, I don't think 250 hrs TT will get you hired in many places. Instead of the expensive MD-90 type just get your CFI/II/MEI. You will have a way to make a few bucks and build time while jobs come around.

I think that by trying to cut in front of the line, students who go this way might end up spending more money and will be narrowing down their opportunities to get jobs. It is nothing against the 200hr guys, I have seen them succeed in airline cockpits, but they have only done so in massive hiring frenzies. When things cool off, like right now, these programs are a scam. No way will you get hired. Then what?

[PJ2]

How do you think the MPL pilot on their first month on the line is going to react?

The decision ranges from diverting without even trying due net inexperience of the crew, (regardless of whether legal qualifications were met or not!) to permitting the inexperienced MPL to fly the approach with the understanding that you're going around at, (say), 100ft and then either diverting or taking over for the next approach and landing. In no way would I hand the airplane and a challenging approach and landing over to a new MPL - likely not even one who's been around a while. Today, with criminal charges ever closer to one's licence, there is simply no percentage in taking the risk, especially if an airline isn't going to recognize the risk and simply expects that their captains will gladly take on the added responsibility.

Bear in mind, I have done lots of Line Indoctrination training most of it thoroughly enjoyable with consummate, experienced professionals who knew their stuff but I've also had some who were low time in light airplanes to whom the airplane, the job and the environment were initially more than a handful. 'Nuff said, (but they eventually became fine pilots, I will add).

To address those who may consider permitting the MPL to continue if things are going well, I would say stick to a previously planned action and spend the gas and time. After all, the bean-counters are already saving big bucks in shortened training footprints and have passed the job on to ordinary line captains, without recognition, pay or formal indemnification, to give newbie MPLs the "industry" experience they didn't receive in the bush, corporate or the military.

The flight deck of an airliner can be an artifically comfortable environment where the world waiting to bite you, can seem a lot further away than it might really be.

On the cockpit being a benign environment: I have always, in every moment of flight, kept in mind and known that in the "next" 30 seconds, all hell could break loose. It's simply what we do as aviators.

It's not a matter of sitting on the edge of the seat, it's a matter of constant, quiet awareness and "recursive" behaviours - meaning, constant, silent, moving analysis of the airplane, the radio work, the FMC and autoflight and then the more "distant" aircraft systems; it is a series of "if-then's" which doesn't interfere with functioning but like walking itself, is something that is done automatically but with a keeness of attention for the slightest hint of change in the "landscape" - if anyone has ever taken a home video of a glass cockpit, the constant refreshing, in sections, of the screen can be seen - quite fascinating - same notion, but far more sophisticated should be going on in all crews' minds: a constant, habitual refreshing of the entire environment's changes, because what is said about the cockpit being "benign" is absolutely true.

It is a warm, congenial little room "to which food is brought and all other needs are met" in which pleasant, quiet conversation may be had but which is travelling at just under a thousand feet per second in an unbelievably hostile environment that is a minimum of 30 minutes away from safe harbour, (earth).

"Success" can (and does - I've seen it), rapidly dull an airline's sensitivities to safety issues, and, in flight, can and does dull a crew's situational awareness if they do not exercise the constant refreshing of same.

Great comment for professional crews and hobbyists alike.

[pontifex]

I think we will find that very few European airlines will be going down the MPL route. The great majority don't like what they are seeing. Indeed, one of the initiating forces in the whole concept was a major EU airline and they have now backed off from the whole idea. The big danger, I believe, is in Chindia. There are predictions (or were until a monthor two ago) of literally thousands of new pilots required. For them the MPL is attractive because it is so little weather or time of day dependant. They are already talking of producing the goods in 12 months. To achieve this the candidate will have no days off, no leave and no time to consolidate his learning. This really does make the mind boggle. Whereas the Western regulatory authorities could probably be relied on to monitor the output, the same will not apply where the state holds all the strings. I hope I am being unduly pessimestic.

[Learjet Baba]

I don't know why you guys are all bashing the poor MPL pilots. They are not to blame for all the mess. They only took advantage of it. I am sure all you guys would have grabbed a chance to do it if it was on offer during your time. Rule 1: Treat your copilot with respect, or are we back to the days when he was considered a useless fellow sitting in the right seat?

[Pugilistic Animus]

The main reason I'm against it has been stated by others

---no air sense

----and also with such little solo time = very little flight/personal responsibility.
---- not learning how to make decisions on their own.
furthermore I question the motives of such applicants I mean do they want to fly or press buttons and get laid?

lastly, it really doesn't matter the person's qualifications

because the mountains say

MP-who!? --- PP- Who!?----ATP- WHO!?

Professor of Who!!!

[jacek_flying]

crosswind landing germany

thought you might like to know that the PF of that baby was a very young 20 yr old female FO

[postman23]

experience?

This one was such a wild ride I stapled the ATIS in my logbook as a keepsake. K### ARR ATIS F 0734Z SPECIAL 17032G45 10SM BKN025 BKN040 OVC100 08/03 A2915 WIND SHEAR ADZYS IN EFCT PILOTS REPORT GAINS AND LOSSES 15 KNOTS ON FINAL.

How do you think the MPL pilot on their first month on the line is going to react? Anybody going to let them have the landing?

@ Northbeach: On page 1 of this topic there is a similar reference to the girl landing the LH 320 in Hamburg striking the wingtip onto the deck...

What bothers me from this message and the quoted text above is that it takes only experienced guys to continue flight into adverse conditions rather that divert.

The 320 skipper had 4 diversion airfields in a 20 minute radius with runways into the wind as well as the option of another runway in Hamburg with a lesser crosswind component. Let alone driving the bird himself.

What exactly was it that you were thinking when you read the ATIS plus and minus 15 knots windshear message?

Seriously, please enlighten me on your thoughts since I obviously missed the 'continued flight into windshear' lesson. If there is one thing that cannot be said about 'rookies' is that they are bold enough to continue when they know **** is about to hit the fan. If there is any danger at all in flying with lowtimers it is that of not being able to stand up to Captain Ace who is 'gonna show you how it is done'. well done, are you going to continue next time when it says WS 16 knots, 17?

No offense buddy but maybe you need to review your SOPs rather than stapling ATIS reports in your book.

[postman23]

pugulistic

making decisions on your own is a concept that got abanded with the 'Captain is king philosophy' after the Tenerife tragedy.

Quoting that as an asset just shows your lack of understanding of the CRM concept.

Jacek
The girl was 23 and PF, instead of trying to spice up the incident, you may want to consider why the captain was not flying the approach himself.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by postman

making decisions on your own is a concept that got abanded with the 'Captain is king philosophy' after the Tenerife tragedy.

Quoting that as an asset just shows your lack of understanding of the CRM concept.

- I think you have misunderstood PA's point, and might just show your lack of understanding of the basis of the crew concept - ie that there are at least 2 suitably qualified crew members in the cockpit? One cannot possibly sensibly assess others' decisions UNLESS you have some experience of making them 'on your own', PLUS one of the major points of having 2 crew is that there is always a 'monitor' on the other. The danger as we see it is that this becomes very dubious if not a non-starter with the low experience levels concerned.

[Artifical Horizon]

Experience!!!

As far as I know no one is born with an ATPL. We all have to start somewhere and we all have to learn. A CPL can go straight froma Seneca to a 737. Its all a big jump and we all had to learn the path. Lets not beat up on the MPLs. Show the benefits of your skills, experience and CRM and help them to enjoy what you have.

[Centaurus]

to score themselves and their partnersan effort to assure that they are used to challenging the authority of the captain

And believe me that has not proved a blessing but a bloody nightmare. Time and again I listen to stories from captains who find themselves having to give a reason for almost any decision they make. Insolence and generational bad manners makes the fligh deck a battleground of wills. The long standing myth of the arrogant grey haired old captain ordering his long suffering copilot to sit down and shut up and don't touch anything on my side of the cockpit spawned the cottage industry of CRM and now TEM. Of course there was the occasional oaf in the left hand seat paralleled by the same number of oafs in the right hand seat. In each case very few. But challenging the authority of the captain has become a sport to some characters - something to boast about over a beer.

[silverhawk]

It certainly threatens safety when the likes of Ryanair resolve to only recruit inexperienced FOs as they are cheaper than experienced FOs.

Not solely Ryanair, many others also.


Just as now in UK everyone could see that the economy was in danger, everyone will wring their hands and say 'I told you so' when this dilution in qualifications contributes to a hull loss.

[JW411]

silverhawk:

I do hope that I am wrong, but I suspect that you are quite an experienced chap who happens to be out of work right now?

If so, my heart goes out to you for I have also been in that situation on more than one occasion where I was too qualified to find a new job.

What you need to do is be patient and look for a new-start company that needs your experience and forget about getting in at the bottom of an existing carrier. You cannot afford to be at the bottom of the hill at age 44.

You also need to understand why existing companies tend to prefer new blood. They probably already have umpteen experienced and loyal F/Os who are waiting for command and would not be thrilled at some new-start taking their place on the list.

Sadly, as a retired TRI/TRE with a lot of experience, it has to be said that the new guys are probably preferable material as compared to old shags. They come without baggage. They don't spend half their time redesigning the aeroplane in groundschool and then telling us all in the simulator and during line training that this isn't the way that they used to do it in ABC Airlines etc. etc.

I am in no way suggesting that you personally would go down that road but you would be amazed at how many try.

Generally speaking, new blood is good news from a company point of view.

That is, unless you are starting your company from scratch, in which case, you need experience NOW.

I have a lot of experience of teaching 250-300 hour pilots to sit in the F/O's seat and there are a lot of very smart and well-trained young boys and girls out there. Most of my youngsters are now doing a great job in the left seat.

[Pugilistic Animus]

making decisions on your own is a concept that got abanded with the 'Captain is king philosophy' after the Tenerife tragedy.

BOAC, you took the words from my mouth

PA

[Deep and fast]

Lots of talk of experience levels reducing,but for the larger companies there is no shortage of experienced pilots. BA take from a more experienced pool of people as well as some cadets. Easy used to until the spectre of easy cash reared its ugly head! I could continue.

So why has the MPL taken so long to get established? In my view it has not been needed in the recent period with easy credit availability and no end of lemmings to jump into the financial ruin of being an ab initio cadet. With money far harder to come by and a reduction of available victims, companies may soon have to dip into their own pockets again. And this was the original concept, to make airline pilots quickly and at a minimum cost.

My own belief is to put them all in a PA34 for a year single pilot flying freight and let the natural selection process provide the useful candidates to the airlines

D and F

[Private jet]

D & F,

You want to put all newly qualified low time pilots into a single crew ME IFR environment? You must be mad. The "survivors" can go on to fly jets eh? Get real. Want to improve air safety? Single pilot IFR should be banned.

Regards,
PJ

[dkz]

PJ, better would be single vfr in a 172 (1965 edition, of course )