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Stewardess demoted to First Officer

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Stewardess demoted to First Officer

Old 23rd Nov 2008, 00:41
  #81 (permalink)  
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Must of been something I ate........

It would be a mistake to lead terrorists to believe that there is a two step approach to get onto the flight deck
1/ is to incapacitate pilot/s, (say by the poisin umbrella method)
2/ produce fake CPL and airline ID in response to call over the PA.

How many pilots consider that being intentionally poisoned is a "real" threat?

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Old 23rd Nov 2008, 03:14
  #82 (permalink)  
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How many pilots consider that being intentionally poisoned is a "real" threat?
Most of us.

That's why we are supposed to pick a different choice from the menu provided by the airline kitchen for in-flight meals.
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 16:00
  #83 (permalink)  
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Maybe I should know this but........
What are the requirements for a three person flight crew?
Distance? Time? a/c Type?

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Old 24th Nov 2008, 16:08
  #84 (permalink)  
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Sod it you lot, just give the Lady CPL holder here due, the Skipper with her assist did a bloody good job. What the heck would you do in that situ, have a CPL to assist, or a shagged out Co-Pilot?

Give the crew (after all Cabin Crew are part of the Crew!) their correct praise and don't keep taking the piss
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 20:42
  #85 (permalink)  
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Merlinxx -Absolutely.

see # 83
Time this thread was closed
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 20:53
  #86 (permalink)  
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Red face

Must of been something I ate........
Really surprised that PPRuNe's resident grammar expert, Rainboe, hasn't commented on that !

I can only guess that he MUST HAVE BEEN reading the thread too quickly to notice !
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Old 24th Nov 2008, 23:36
  #87 (permalink)  
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double incapacitation

There are many passengers with deep aviation knowledge (capability to understand and manage the autopilot ) that should be recognized at once in the loading manifesto by the Purser.
It should and extra safety net having more than a relief pilot on board.

Nowadays if you board a plane and play with your FMGS simulator on the Lap top they approach you like a potential terrorist.

In the case of Helios disaster is because the policy (close door) that all perished in a very easy and simple accident to be solved. If I ever will be in an aircraft that continue to climb after the oxygen mask are deployed I will certainly question hard and ASAP the purser asking her to open immediately that stupid armored door!

Airliner are not only restaurant with wings but machine that many of us can handle quite well.Pilot and not pilots, provided their ability at list to handle the radio and find "that" switch on the control to communicate to anybody in that frequency.

but nowadays in order to save lives we would be probably shoot down by a f16

blue skyes
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 18:36
  #88 (permalink)  
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As humble cc... in the company I work for we are trained that in the event of single pilot incapacitation the remaining pilot might want us in the empty seat to read check lists. The emphasis is on 'might' as in that unenviable position its up to the remaining flight crew to decide the best course of action. I certainly wouldn't question a captain's/ FO's decision to put a call out for say " an ID80/90 pax with ATPL" if he/she felt that this was the best option.

And addressing the query on decompression - after the Helios tragedy the cc drill has now changed so if the descent does not commence (after a specified period) then cc report to the flight deck to investigate.
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 21:40
  #89 (permalink)  
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bunkrest , possibly because we might work for the same outfit.

Personally I ( and I think many others here) would see to it that

(a) The automatics were taking me where I want to go.

(b) The victim in the other seat was tended to.

(c) Declare an emergency, take advice from the medics by satphone and and consider landing at somewhere suitable ASAP.

(d) Ask for Cabin Crew to look for a Company pilot, or help with books, refreshment, empty water bottles , perhaps checklist reading ( and to keep an eye on my physical condition ).

(e) Land the aircraft.

Call me old fashioned but what I'm not going to do is invite a PPL/ Flight simmer or even an ATCer ( sorry guys) onto the Flight Deck and then open another whole whole can of worms over CRM/Tech/ATC knowledge......
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 22:27
  #90 (permalink)  
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Ladies and Gents,

Let's face it, it doesn't take two people to land an aeroplane of any sort. There are countless thousands of aircraft with only one seat ffs. One lands it and the other , if on a multi crew aeroplane , does all the ancilliary stuff. Airline crews fairly regularly practice, in a simulator, flying an approach and landing with the other crew member 'incapacitated', well we do anyway.

The practice pays off, around five years ago I was on a SYD-NRT sector in a B767, and the Captain was incapacitated with the symptoms of kidney stones. Medical advice was sought and he was directed to 'have nothing further to do with the operation of the aircraft'. I, being the F/O, now had the chance to log some command time. Well I took over anyhow and completed the flight to NRT in weather conditions which were right on ILS chart minima, at night in rain with a S/O who had never been to NRT. He was less than helpful because of his inexperience.

It all worked just fine, the approach and landing was completed, the aeroplane was parked and shut down, the ailing Captain was seen to by medical staff and off to the Truck the rest of us went.

The reason modern airliners have two sets of controls and require two pilots to operate them is not because they are almost impossibly difficult to operate but for the very reason that this thread exists, in case of pilot incapacitation and nothing else. If one pilot can't function fully then the other one takes over all the duties, for which they should be trained and more than capable.

Of course things would get a little more interesting if you also had a technical problem to deal with but that falls into the realm of 'multiple failures' which is generally not considered or trained for but sometimes does happen.

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Old 27th Nov 2008, 11:09
  #91 (permalink)  
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If I ever will be in an aircraft that continue to climb after the oxygen mask are deployed I will certainly question hard and ASAP the purser asking her to open immediately that stupid armored door!
Yes indeed, too bad youweren't on that Helios flight.
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 15:46
  #92 (permalink)  
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Humans, all-nighters, Housekeeping-tactics for Pilots

This sort of tedious long-haul, all-NIGHTer, CRZ condition, has resulted in some interesting human-cases. “Incapacitation” ?? or maybe just a “normal” long-day???

Sometimes, in the past, things didn’t go as well -- as in this well managed Air Canada case. Maybe there are “housekeeping” tactics pilots employ, at night, in recognition of past human “distractions” and human errs.

Thinking back to 15Feb59, PanAm 115, with Capt Waldo Lynch out-of-seat, and out-of-cockpit: "Clipper 115" a B707, N712PA, en route from Paris-London-Gander to NY, made an uncontrolled descent of approximately 29000 feet. Following recovery aircraft flown to Gander. … extensive structural damage.

China Air 006, 19Feb85, B747SP lost control at FL410. Investigators attributed the initial upset to thrust asymmetry: "Airplane rolled to the right, nosed over, and entered and uncontrollable descent." Passing 19083' aircraft experienced 5.1 G's…. leveled at 9,500 feet… major structural damage,

AA901 / 29Jun94, 0023 eastern, MD-11, N1752K Night CRZ, PIC out-of-cockpit on rest break, Relief F/O in left seat, FA entered COCKPIT with BEVERAGES, FA routinely attempted to place the tray on the footrest of Observers Seat, but FO’s SEAT was back, IN THE WAY. Without F/O’s knowledge, left seater reached across and ACTIVATED electric motor SWITCH for FO’s Seat, MOVING it forwared... FO'S LEG-CROSSED ... contacted COLUMN PUSHING IT FORWARD…. AUTOPILOT tripped OFF…. FORWARD COLUMN INPUT … PITCHED DOWN. … INJURIES TO PASSENGERS AND CREW. [visitor-in-cockpit, FO’s seat-aft, FO’s leg-crossed heel-to-knee while occupying a pilot seat].

B767 / 31Oct99, NIGHT Crz, FL330, east bound, North Atlantic, one pilot out-of-seat, out-of-cockpit, PF/FO el-Batouty voices a common prayer mentioned after mundane surprises … At 0149:18, the CVR recorded the sound of an electric seat motor … 27 seconds later … the autopilot … disconnected…. very slight movement of both elevators … slight nose-down pitch change, which were recorded within the first second after autopilot disconnect…” ... FDR G trace, UPSET- dive … Capt returns to cockpit … Pull-up- steep climb ... then descent to impact. // Suspicious! Murdercide? Or maybe just an older FO-PF, at night, long CRZ, slightly disoriented, maybe not feeling his best.

Last edited by IGh; 27th Nov 2008 at 18:19.
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 10:50
  #93 (permalink)  
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God as Co-pilot??

Poor beggar.

FA had an expired license to read instruments???


The co-pilot of an Air Canada Boeing 767 had a nervous breakdown midair and had to be restrained and sedated. A female flight attendant (with an expired license for reading airplane instruments) then helped the pilot make an emergency landing in Ireland.

That's what Irish investigators concluded today in their findings about a January incident involving an Air Canada Boeing 767, the AP says.

"The flight attendant provided useful assistance to the commander, who remarked in a statement to the investigation that she was 'not out of place' while occupying the right-hand seat," said the report by the Air Accident Investigation Unit. None of the crew members was identified.

The jet was headed from Toronto to London with 146 passengers and nine other crew members.

The 58-year-old co-pilot was a licensed veteran with more than 6,500 hours' flying time, about half on board Boeing 767s, and had recently passed a medical examination.

"He was swearing and asking for God and very distressed. He basically said he wanted to talk to God," a passenger told the BBC after the plane landed.

The co-pilot was hospitalized for 11 days in Irish mental wards before being flown by air ambulance back to Canada. His illness was not revealed.

Full report here: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/11139-0.pdf
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 10:55
  #94 (permalink)  
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And now for the version written by real / Av media!

Subtle incapacitation of an Air Canada Boeing 767-300 first officer during a transatlantic flight led the captain to divert the aircraft to Shannon, Ireland, landing with the assistance of a flight attendant who held a commercial pilot licence.

The 28 January 2008 incident is described as "serious" in an Irish Report.

It says the captain's awareness that all was not well began pre-flight when the co-pilot, who had positioned into Toronto Pearson Airport from Montreal as a passenger, arrived with little time to spare and seemed "quite harried".

The captain told the co-pilot to meet him at the aircraft, assuring him that all flight preparations were complete. After the flight left on time and climbed to flight level 360 the captain became increasingly worried about the co-pilot's condition and behaviour, which was out-of-character.

More than once the co-pilot re-entered the cockpit using non-standard security procedures, and eventually began to speak in an unco-ordinated way, eventually becoming "belligerent and unco-operative", and failing to fasten his harness on returning to his seat.

The captain called for the assistance of the cabin crew to remove the pilot from his seat, identified two doctors on board who attended to him and, in the absence of any pilots among the passengers, enlisted the help of the CPL-qualified flight attendant.

Once in VHF radio contact with Shanwick Oceanic, the captain made a 'pan' call and requested diversion to Shannon, where the weather was good compared with the aircraft's destination, London Heathrow. The aircraft landed safely.

Medical staff met the co-pilot who was hospitallised for 11 days before being returned to Canada on a medevac flight, where his treatment continued.

The AAIU report does not describe the medical diagnosis, but lists Transport Canada advice about pilot subtle incapacitation for which, it says, the most common causes include hypoxia, hypoglycaemia, extreme fatigue, alcohol or toxic substances, and which can involve neurological causes like stroke or a brain tumour.

Irish investigators have not made any recommendations
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 11:39
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 14:22
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Ref: "15Feb59, PanAm 115, with Capt Waldo Lynch out-of-seat, and out-of-cockpit: "Clipper 115" a B707, N712PA, en route from Paris-London-Gander to NY, made an uncontrolled descent of approximately 29000 feet. Following recovery aircraft flown to Gander. … extensive structural damage."

I asked an old friend who was a F/E at PAA for many years if he recalled the incident and he provided the following information:

"Waldo was out of the cockpit "Glad Handing" all the guests aboard. Copilot didn't have his seat belt fastened, Flight Engineer was George Sinsky (passed away earlier this year).

Aircraft had gradually accelerated to a higher mach speed, when suddenly it pitched down and really accelerated. Co-pilot closed the throttles.

Copilot tried to pull back the yoke, resulted in just lifting him outof the seat. George tried wrapping his arms around the copilot and hold him, result was negative. Altimeter was spinning fast and with rate of climb pegged-out at 6,000 fpm down. Aircraft started to buffet.

George rotated his seat and got his seat belt off and slipped out of his seat to the floor. He moved forward on his knees and straddeled the center pedestal ,where he released the stab trim handles and started cranking nose up.

The aircraft started to pull-up with resultant high "G" forces and turned slightly.

Waldo was on his knees and crawling towards the cockpit. All the stuff that had floated to the cabin ceiling started to come down and strike folks. Some passengers that didn't have their seat belts on also came down. Waldo finally got to the cockpit and resumed flying the airplane which was still difficult to control. They declared a Mayday and gradually turned the airplane back towards YQX. Escorts soon met Clipper 115 and escorted them to YQX.

After arrival at YQX they saw the extensive damage to the airplane. The entire empenage was displaced to the left. Boing builds strong structures! Passengers that were injured were taken to the hospital and others accomadated in local hotels till the relief airplane arrived next day.

Ultimately, it was determined that the airplane went into a "Mach Tuck". Credit for saving the flight went to Waldo, the skipper.

George told me what had really happened when I met him some time later. I recently wrote the Editor of the "Clipper" magazine recently and Flight Engineer George Sinsky's version was published.

George was one gentleman and a great Flight Engineer."

Sounds like quite an exciting incident, to say the least! At any rate, not being of that generation, I now see why there was so much anxiety when the two crew airplanes came into service.
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 18:02
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Reading through this thread reminds me of another thread recently about PPL's and commercial jets.

Once again the same undertone escapes and it is evident that many of you professional pilots are pretty precious individuals considering that except for the first and last 500ft, it is mainly pushing buttons to command automatics these days !

For my money I consider that the most important commodity in aviation is the ability to exercise good judgement. It is my experience that a 1000hr multi engine, instrument rated CPL (or PPL if they don't fly for money and want to avoid more paperwork than absolutely necessary), who flies regularly on the airways with exactly the same procedures as a commercial jet but with a lot more disadvantages in lack of automatics and limited weather capability, while acting as PIC, co-pilot and FE (old engines you know!) is probably in a pretty good position to help the PF with the following.

1. Communication with ATC
2. reference to, preparation of charts and mutual briefing (read double checking) of arrival and approach procedures and frequencies.
3. Reading of checklists.
4. Flagging up to the PF anything that doesn't look right and might be worth a quick mention just to be sure.

Related to point four, on a personal basis, when jump seats could be occupied by non employees, a gently placed question saved a BA777 captain friend of mine from taxying his nosewheel in to some newly laid wet concrete at a relatively remote airport which I happened to know quite well and in that case there were two well rested and capable pilots, not one.

The mantra would seem to be redundancy, use of resources and good judgement. Maybe in another case it wouldn't be wet concrete to taxi in to but rather a mountain that was about to be flown in to, or an unusual attitude at low level that had occured while distracted but of couse airline pilots never do that, do they, and the principles of flight are so vastly different once you get your hands on that big shiny automatic jet

I think that the Captain of this flight should be applauded for excellent judgement, impeccable use of common sense and more importantly a healthy dose of humility. I wish all airline pilots that I trust my life and that of my family to, would conform to that standard, but unhappily, as is evidenty in these forums, I wouldn't trust some of you with the remote control to my TV set, the problem is, one never knows for sure who is up front in charge of the jet
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 20:55
  #98 (permalink)  
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rmac: The only thing i can agree with you about is, that the canadian captain whose actions started this tread, did a very good job.

Oh yes, and if your 777 friend saved the whole aircraft only because of you, then maybe him and his f/o should wait going to work, until they have enough capacity to taxi safely on the tarmac

The rest you write is utter nonsenes.

Why do non-pilots always think they know all about how to fly planes???

Back to the flight-sim with you
Old 29th Nov 2008, 21:23
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Now there you go with your precious nonsense UP and Down (there I can click more heads banging than you can, how clever of me).

I regularly fly single pilot IMC, airways and approaches to minimums. Aside from actually operating the particular aircraft type please let me know what is different in the process, maybe I use a different ILS or VOR/DME approach or speak to a different controller, which could be a bit embarassing when sandwiched between two 737's and being forced to rush my approach with a vector to intercept right on top of the FAF, to make way for my better automated, multi crewed, faster friends, please tell me and try using convincing argument rather than vitriol.

Your post does however rather prove my point. You clearly have neither judgement nor humility, god help you on the day that it is needed.

For your greater edification, the wet concrete was badly signed but I happen to read Russian, and understand English when spoken (yelled) by a harrassed Russian speaking controller, which neither of the crew could reasonably be expected to do. So a useful extra resource. No "saved aircraft" but a lot of saved embarrassment and saved significant extra expense for the airline.

Last edited by rmac; 29th Nov 2008 at 22:33.
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 22:55
  #100 (permalink)  
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Your post does however rather prove my point. You clearly have neither judgement nor humility, god help you on the day that it is needed.
Without wanting to tell you things you have no interest in, then to your own "humble" information i can inform that I, just like many many other professionel pilots, started flying single pilot on everything from piston to complicated multi-engine a/c in commersial operations all over the world, from the tropics to the arctics..... and yes once again... single pilot, before i started with the airlines in multicrew operations.

Also therefor i know what the difference is between airline flying and GA, and the gap is big, even though the experience gained by GA is generally really good. Just a pity that single pilots often works better alone, hence = not a good idea to take up front when we are busy.... sorry!!

A person with your attitude is the kind of person i would avoid on the flightdeck at any time during an emergency, because your ego seems much greater than your knowledge, and that can potentially create substancial amounts of extra negative work to a guy/girl up front after a pilot incap.

A company pilot positioning or a cabincrew to help out is the most safe as i see it. And true, modern airliners can fly them self if not too many technical failures, so it's not really the big problem to land it singlepilot if need be, ...... so still no need for eager hotshots wanting to have a go at it!!!

Might be time to close this one!!!

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