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Stewardess demoted to First Officer

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Stewardess demoted to First Officer

Old 20th Nov 2008, 12:32
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Absolutely true story of a chap who'd agreed to allow a colleague's friend into the flight-deck for take-off (In the days when you could)
He suddenly remembered, as he was making the short taxi-ing out but couldn't find the bit of paper on which he'd scribbled the guy's name and wasn't sure whether it was this sector or the return one.

He asked the flight-attendant if she try to find him - not sure of his name but he's a flying instructor at Oxford and probably in a Club-Class seat .........and be quick, we'll be going in a couple of minutes !

PA from flight-attendant;
"Ladies and gentlemen, if there's a flying instructor on board would he make his way to the cockpit where the captain is waiting to take-off".
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 12:36
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Agaricus, While I do find the thought of an explanation of the thinking behind making a desperate PA for a ppl to come up and save the day to be comical, I have to confess to being surprised that you would be entertained by an explanation of getting CC to read a checklist out.

Well, in an attempt to amuse you, here goes! My company would expect you to give consideration to (if no suitable pilot is available) getting CC to read the checklist. It is written as such in the part A and the cabin crew manual. I know other airlines also have it detailed. This is also taught in the sim (or has been to me on a couple of occasions) where the expectation is that you would get a member of CC up to assist.
I say you are expected to consider because as you are probably aware the levels of intelligence can vary in the UK population somewhat. You are obviously going to want someone with common sense and brains to assist as they will appreciate to listen, keep quiet and read the cx list etc etc. Some crew would talk over calls, ask you about x-factor etc, some would observe, monitor and do a very good job. Some CC do have brains you know! They have been told during initial training how to do this and the procedure is detailed in the cabin crew manual, including how to read the checklist. If however, there is no suitable member of crew to assist you would carry on on your own. If there is a bright spark on board (and I bet there is) why not use them to help.

Do you not think this is actually beneficial to safety??? My company obviously thinks so!! I do personally! We often fly with the same people and can build up good friendships. I think it would be very stressful seeing a friend get taken seriously ill. I assume this could reduce my capacity a bit as I might be stressed. I think it might be nice to have someone to turn to and say “I did read back flight level 100? I did say heading 080 didn’t I?”
On a CRM front as current CC they should know when to talk, when not to etc. During CRM are we not taught we are all one big team? Are we not told to listen to the CC as they may see and hear things we have missed (Kegworth). Pick the right person, there are no CRM issues. Pick the right person and flight safety has increased. To disregard this option out of hand over looks a chance to improve flight safety in my opinion.

Hope I gave you a giggle with this!

p.s. willowfly, sorry my sarcasm often runs away with me (I realise now you are not in aviation). Lowest form of wit I know!! (see line above)

Last edited by one post only!; 20th Nov 2008 at 13:41.
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 13:10
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If the Captain did say "she was not out of place there" then I think that's the biggest compliment he could have paid her.
Too often we hear patronising comments from airline company representitives after such incidents, full of modern day PC crap and inane blather.

Well done both of them and I hope that the company persuade her to pursue a career up front (if that's what she wants).
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 13:37
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Question

How about considering an air traffic controller to assist? Familiarity with r/t procedures, phraseology, and ATC procedures in general (albeit depending where you are). Quite a few have PPL and even CPL experience - and I'm sure they could manage a check list.
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 14:12
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Testing for mental illness

Apart from answering a declaration that you have/have not suffered a mental illness or seen a psychiatrist, does anyone know of any pilots asked to undergo a psychiatric examination?

Don't want to rain on the unfortunate Canadian FO's parade but there have been cases with fatal outcomes where a clearly mentally unstable pilot has crashed the plane, eg Egyptair and Silk Air, to name two.
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 16:43
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All that stuffs for films and yes when i was i kid down the back i used to think... I've flowen flight sim wouldn't it be kinna cool if they had to ask me to go up and help because there was a prob with both pilots.


Fact is There are two pilots up there for a number of reasons this is one of them. It is practiced and infact a requirement of type rating to be able to perform single pilot ops in the event of incap.

As for CC helping out in my company all Seniors,pusers,no. 1's whatever you wanna call them are trained to get you plates out and to read the checklist for you good idea if you ask me.

The thought of asking over the PA is there a pilot on board sends shivers down my spine...

Sorry to all those who still fly in hope of being the hollywood hero.
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 16:49
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Sub Orbital:

I cannot speak with any authority about the cabin staff that you fly with in your part of the world.

In my part of the world, I know of at least one young lady who is a CSD in her day job but who also instructs in the local flying club and who also flies a Cessna Citation on her days off. Now I would have her on my flight deck any day if I needed help.

I retired from serious aeroplanes two years ago. In those days, we used to teach the loadmasters/cabin staff how to secure or remove incapacitated
crew members from the flight deck and then to occupy the vacant seat and read checklists etc and operate the radio.

I absolutely would not, repeat not, invite a PPL holder up front to "help" me.

They would be so unfamiliar with the environment and the company SOPs that they would be a huge distraction to me and the situation and would need a huge amount of pre-briefing.

To what purpose?

I am perfectly capable of getting the thing on the ground on my own and so is my F/O and we practice just such an event every six months.

Please don't get me wrong, professional help I might welcome but amateur help I could do without.
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 17:03
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How about considering an air traffic controller to assist? Familiarity with r/t procedures, phraseology, and ATC procedures in general (albeit depending where you are). Quite a few have PPL and even CPL experience - and I'm sure they could manage a check list.
So, let's get this right. One pilot incap, other pilot flying by him(her)self. When it comes to do a checklist he keys the microphone, negotiates with ATC asking if they could assist by reading his checklist out to him(her). ATC, bemused, agree and ask for him(her) to read the checklist out over the RT so that the controller can write it down. Pilot obliges, including giving all the standard responses so that the ATCer gets the full picture.

Then, and only then, can the pilot ask the controller for the 'Approach Checklist', which the Air Traffic Controller now obliges with, AND what's more checks that the pilot gives the correct responses (because the pilot told him/her what they were earlier!)

A major advance in aviation safety when flying single crew I would say. Would love to hear the 'Landing Checklist' at 4nm........

PP
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 17:15
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How about considering an air traffic controller to assist?
Pete, you may have misunderstood ! I think that referred to an ATCO being of possible assistance if he happened to be a passenger, actually aboard the flight where a pilot was incapacitated !
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 17:18
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 17:20
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Stewardess Demoted to First Officer

Perhaps the heading of this thread should be Stewardess promoted to First Officer instead of demoted
At the risk of having to explain the joke, which is always a dangerous thing, I think the original poster was referring to the attitude of certain airlines' Senior Cabin Attendants who genuinely believe that THEY are in charge of the aircraft and the Captain is merely there to get the plane from A to B! Ask any BA Cabin Services Director!

Anyway, CRM is all about using all the resources available to you and if the Captain felt that the situation warranted sitting a Cabin Attendant who had some flying experience in the seat to help with the checklist (which I suspect was what happened) then why not? How can you criticise that decision when the outcome was a good one?

As for allowing her to fly it, well it would be pretty naive to think that happened! Can you imagine spending the time to explain the differences between large jet and Piper Seneca. I personally find that there is little enough time on a short sector these days to manage to eat a crew meal and a passenger dessert, let alone to try and remember my instructional patter!

I think most pilots would cope quite happily- and whilst we are trained to get Doris in to read the checklist, I don't think that it is beyond the wit of man to do without if she was more suitably occupied with her duties elsewhere. After all, I bet every professional pilot knows the normal checklist by heart even though a checklist is always used.
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 17:23
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In the Toronto Sun today:

"The Cabin attendant had a current commercial pilots licence and an expired licence to read the cockpit instruments." Or words to that effect.

See John 11:35
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 17:46
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Apart from answering a declaration that you have/have not suffered a mental illness or seen a psychiatrist, does anyone know of any pilots asked to undergo a psychiatric examination?
Some U.S. airline interviews famously included a visit to the shrink. Years ago Delta had a guy named Janus who put you in a rocking chair. There was great debate over whether to rock at the evaluation. Sadly, Dr. Janus took his own life after passing judgment on the mental stability of thousands of applicants.

Huck and others probably know more about this but over at FedEx a Captain Barnhart was ordered to undergo a psych eval after some over the top comments on a union forum. He initially agreed to the eval but later decided not to go and he was fired.

See the second article here:

The Memphis Flyer: City Reporter

FedEx had been criticized for not taking action on Auburn Calloway before his bloody hijack attempt. Calloway had exhibited bizzare behavior on more than one occasion according to interviews done after his attempt to crash a DC-10 into the afternoon MEM sort.

My colleagues who are packing heat as FFDO's are required to do a psych eval. Of course, some of them are paranoid that the new presidental administration will take away their personal firearms and they are stocking up on guns and ammo.

Years ago non-standard sexual behavior would get you in trouble. Now it is the other pilots who must learn to accomodate cross-dressing and gay marriage.

A diagnosed personality disorder will put your medical in jeopardy unless it is a gender related issue, in which case the company and the FAA seem to look the other way. Every airline seems to have one or two transgendered individuals these days who continue flying through most of the transition process. If you indicate that you are not comfortable working with the individual, you risk getting sent for an eval and sensitivity training yourself.

Don't want to rain on the unfortunate Canadian FO's parade but there have been cases with fatal outcomes where a clearly mentally unstable pilot has crashed the plane, eg Egyptair and Silk Air, to name two.
True and it raises the point that if you try to get help you are leaving a paper trail that could cause you to lose your medical certificate and job. If you don't get help, you may get sick to the point of endangering everyone.
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 18:34
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Never gave it a thought the way you interpreted my post Pilot Pete. But now that you mention it..............

You might be surprised how many pilots think they can control air traffic from their FD
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 19:45
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Flash - Bravo Zulu!

One post (and best it stays that way...)

Well, in an attempt to amuse you, here goes! My company would expect you to give consideration to (if no suitable pilot is available) getting CC to read the checklist. It is written as such in the part A and the cabin crew manual.
One post. "So it is written into Part A". Fantastic! But you fell into the trap of justifying why, by CRM and Human factors. In this you spectacularly bombed - crashed and burned. Where is your reason? Oh! It is in SOP!

Pal, I asked for a reason, not a pavlovian response. Stop and think for a second or two (most people would find that sufficient) why, just why, is it advantageous for a stranger unfamiliar with the entire concept of checklists to read those checklists in a potential emergency?

Think about it for a moment...

Why/how is it safer to introduce a stranger to SOPs into a safety critical event than to allow the supremely trained Professional to carry on alone undistracted?

Bolleaux!

The potential hazards of an unfamiliar person - totally untrained in "closing the loop" getting involved in critical checks with all the potential hazards of distraction. mistakes and lack of awarenes of what is required when there is a fully trained Professional to do this (albeit unmonitored) is several orders of magnitude worse thasn letting the Professional get on with it himself.

OnePost,

You need to think - that is, "think".

SOPs and Vol 1 quotes are a guide, not a limitation, and are not necessarily correct.

I think your response in support of blinkered, automatic unconsideded adherence to SOPs and the "manual" has amply provided the amusement I asked for....

Set brain in gear plese!
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 20:29
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A visitor to the flt. deck of a RAF Belfast once commented on the width of the flight deck, the co-pilot remarked that it was so the Captain couldn't hit him.

I never flew 2-crew transports - thank goodness - I'd like a Flt. Eng. in my flight bag even today, but I imagine (?) all the essential controls can be reached by either pilot, I would suggest a major design fault if not ?

I always believed in telling the passengers the truth, no one gets more p*ssed off than a blatant whitewash and in this case, a quiet, straightforward explanation that your co-pilot had been taken sick, but that you ( and the autopilot ? ) could still cope, however a helping hand would be welcomed etc. would be quite acceptable, of course that would be a last resort after polling the cabin crew, many of which have some handling experience if not actually legally licensed.

If you don't want to do that, and really can manage on your own, tell ATC for a start and relieve some of the workload that they might otherwise expect of you.

Where's the drama - except in the minds of the idiot Press ? This situation was handled professionally, hardly merits all the discussion it has caused.

The chances of this situation being deliberately set up by a nutter, ( i.e. terrorist ) are so remote as to be ludicrous, and if you really believe that, then don't ever go near an aeroplane !

Just my ha'pennysworth. G'bye.
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 20:29
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OK, I admit it . . . . . I had to look it up . . . .

John 11:35
= Jesus wept
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 20:32
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How about considering an air traffic controller to assist? Familiarity with r/t procedures, phraseology, and ATC procedures in general (albeit depending where you are). Quite a few have PPL and even CPL experience - and I'm sure they could manage a check list.
Nice thought, but...

I have PPL, 20 hours in full motion sim and several hundred take offs and landings in light aircraft.

God forgive this ever happened on a flight where I was pax, but if so, I'd infinitely prefer a CC member from the company, trained in their checklists and SOPs to assist the remaining pilot, rather than a PPL or ATCO.

If asked, I'd try my best, but having seen how an airliner is operated, I don't think I add a lot of value compared to a CC member trained to read the checklists and help with whatever other appropriate tasks the company might decide.
 
Old 20th Nov 2008, 20:34
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John 11:35
and Hebrews Ch13 v8

"..Jesus Christ, the same yesterday,today, and forever.. " ( or words to that effect - no Book to hand ! )
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Old 20th Nov 2008, 20:40
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Dont go publicising this too much...

It might just give Willie at Birdseed the notion of adding it to the Ts & Cs of any newstart cabin crew at the airline...
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