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Air France Pilot Strike - where's the news?

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Air France Pilot Strike - where's the news?

Old 13th Nov 2008, 19:28
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I dont know why people wish to fly till they are 65...? 60 is already too old for me if I was to have it my way I would retire at 50...

Bring on retirement especially after the way aviation has changed since 9/11...
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 19:37
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I agree 'Springbok' To be honest some of might not even make '50' at this Economical rate.

So to reach 65 or whatever may be a thing of the past??

I don't know how it can still be enjoyable after 40 + years??
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 19:40
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Does the whole possibility-of-retiring-at-65 thing have something to do with the fact that the french pension fund for pilots and cabin crew (CRPN) is desparately short of cash? The number of retirees is steadily growing since people retire very early while the number of people working sort of remains constant. The french government has been introducing all kinds of measures to stop the bleeding (like forcing foreign airlines to employ their personnel based in France under french contracts, paying into the CRPN), raising the retirement age is another one.

Any thoughts?
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 19:42
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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German courts vs. EU Law

Can anyone explain to me what better knowledge a court has over the tens of thousands of hours of research by industry related medical experts and other parties (german ones included) that spent years checking the safety and viability of the 65 age rule. Sounds a bit like another country using the " lets make a rule, ignore it but make sure its enforced elswhere". The EU gets less democratic & more third world..... again....
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 20:00
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Air France pilots are highly dependant on the French state pension scheme. The state pension is not going to pay any pilot at age 60 when they are legally allowed to fly until age 65.

Don't you think that's a worthy case for a 4-day strike?

Their blue Dutch company still has age 56 as retirement age (and they intend to keep it that way), but these guys have a well funded pension scheme and are independent of state pension schemes.
The gap between the French and Dutch is going to widen more...
I am baffled at how ill informed you are. French pilots have their own pension fund called CRPNAC standing for Caissse de retraite du Personnel de l'Aviation Civile, which also includes cabin crew who in their wisdom leave at .........55. In short, french pilots, who retire at 60, subsidize cabin crew early retirement. For years the french governement has tried to merge it with the general pension system; Why ??? Because there's a lot of money in it which they'd like to lay their greedy hands on.
Check your facts.
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 20:00
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Skyloone,

It's not only about better knowledge, it's a rules game. The EU sets a framework, individual countries can be more restrictive if they want. Don't know how it is in Germany in particular, but in Holland a certain group of workers (within a certain trade, profession or company) can agree on a collective labour agreement with their employer that is more restrictive with regards to retirement age. One can legally work until 65 as a pilot, but KLM pilots have negotiated a retirement age of 56. The collective labour agreement is co-signed by the government, once the government is satisfied that enough money is being paid into the pension fund by pilots and their employer. The possibility of retiring at 65 is not an obligation to do so! The only binding rule is that you cannot work as an airline pilot after 65.

Quite a lot of KLM-retirees go on working for other companies either because they think it's fun or to pay for their third alimony...
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 20:00
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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If the motivation for the strike is that people in Air France will ultimately be forced to work to 65 by the pension rules as Rageye says, then I can understand a bit better what this is about.

I know this issue has led to strikes in the railways in France. Is this really the issue?

As an aside there is nothing unusual about laws being passed in the middle of the night. I don't think that is a relevant objection.

On the other hand if people can work until 65 if they want to but are not forced to, then I cannot see there will be much sympathy.
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 20:24
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Can anyone explain to me what better knowledge a court has over the tens of thousands of hours of research by industry related medical experts and other parties (german ones included) that spent years checking the safety and viability of the 65 age rule. Sounds a bit like another country using the " lets make a rule, ignore it but make sure its enforced elswhere". The EU gets less democratic & more third world..... again....
At least to say, I can't.

It's not a matter of safety, it's obviously a matter of unions/polticians/companies.
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 20:34
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Me Myself
I am baffled at how ill informed you are. French pilots have their own pension fund called CRPNAC standing for Caissse de retraite du Personnel de l'Aviation Civile, which also includes cabin crew who in their wisdom leave at .........55. In short, french pilots, who retire at 60, subsidize cabin crew early retirement. For years the french governement has tried to merge it with the general pension system; Why ??? Because there's a lot of money in it which they'd like to lay their greedy hands on.
Check your facts. Today 21:42
+1

CRPN isn't short of cash (for now), and it isn't a state pension. It is a very complicated matter, and contributors would be well advised not to jump to conclusions.
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 20:42
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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The possibility of retiring at 65 is not an obligation to do so! The only binding rule is that you cannot work as an airline pilot after 65.
That was what the PRO65 guys thought when they lobbied in Portugal. However the law came out as an obligation to work until 65 (well, you can retire before but they take a big chunk of your retirement pay away), because the social security saw a nice oportunity to squeeze some rich pilots.

And that is what is going to happen in France if they don't fight back. I see a lot of complaints from our british colleagues, but the rest of the world is not to blame if you let your T & C's go down the toilet.

Check Six, Krueger...
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 20:44
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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CRPN might not be very short of cash now (last thing I heard was minus 93 million euro this year), but they will be in the very near future. This situation is not unique for France, since most of the pension funds overthere will drown due to the ageing population (as will their social security and healthcare systems).
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 21:18
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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And apart from venting might I be as bold as asking.............what the f...k is your point regarding this particular topic ???
Yeah mate, rue St Catherine looks real slick for sure !!!
I'm sorry I thought I was dealing with reasonably intelligent people in here in that I wouldn't have to draw a picture...Most developed countries' workers understand that going on strike all the time is detrimental to their business in the long run. When the only dialog you understand is arguing instead of compromise you get nowhere fast.

I will take the Canadian economy any day of the week over the French one so don't really understand your swipe at Montreal's main street, although if you are French I could understand if it doesn't meet your aesthetic standards of Parisian beauty...

And all the stuff you listed (while I agree that Canada will be affected as much as anyone else, 15 years of government surpluses give you maneuvering room that France doesn't have) is US-centric. You do know that Canada is a separate country right?

So French pilots oblivious to pissing off customers due to internal hissy fits and jealousy really doesn't get my sympathy when I am stuck in the worst airport in Europe, CDG, for hours while they play their little games. Clear enough for ya?

Now where is that diagram...
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 21:22
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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As an aside there is nothing unusual about laws being passed in the middle of the night. I don't think that is a relevant objection.

On the other hand if people can work until 65 if they want to but are not forced to, then I cannot see there will be much sympathy.
Before the amendment was passed..............in the middle of the night without anyone being aware of it and nothing, despite governement reassurances, having been discussed ( I'd say this is very wrong ) AF pilots were considered as being dismissed and walked away with a lump summ equal to about 9 months of the last salary............tax free.
The amendment requilified all this as you would guess as it would have been regarded as a volontary dismissal. All of sudden, because of a very small group, you find yourself having to pay taxes to allow a handfull of guys to carry on til 65 !! Sorry, it's just not on, even if we're not " forced
" to carry on til 65.
From what I heard, offers were made at the last minute to guaranty that nothing would be changed for those chosing to leave at 60. Unfortunatly, this came too late. Even if pilots were showing up for work tommorrow, half the flights have been canceled anyway.
This charade is the whole french government and its croonies responsability. AF had nothing to do with it.
There is a solution to this :
1/ Get a life
2/ Stay married to the same woman

Retirement age for other people was pushed to 70 , on a volontary basis !!! . Do you think people want to work to such a ridiculous age ??? More than 70 % of the poulation is opposed to this.
We should now believe, after decades of social progress that work is " fun " and that we should carry on working instead of travelling and enjoying what's left of life after 30 + years or sometimes much more on a job.
Trillions have been pumped into financial institutions but when it comes to people you're told to work til 70 ??? This is just a bloody farce.
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 21:25
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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So French pilots oblivious to pissing off customers due to internal hissy fits and jealousy really doesn't get my sympathy when I am stuck in the worst airport in Europe, CDG, for hours while they play their little games. Clear enough for ya?
Try LHR, you shan't be disapointed. I am saddened to have to go to bed without your sympathy. Shattering ! Had I had the time, I would have explained the merits of negociation, collective agreement and keeping your word. A tad old fashioned I know.
John Howard is free, just been recently sacked if you're interested in poor social relationships.
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Old 13th Nov 2008, 21:41
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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French Strikes this week-end.

Just to add my two pence worth; the trains are also on strike in France on Friday so it will be pretty difficult getting around in France on public transport.
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Old 14th Nov 2008, 01:40
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Don't I recall an AF pilots threat to strike a little while ago when the authorities tried to bring in "English only" in French airspace/airport environments!

And, believe it or not, whilst I was there, based in Paris, operating for AAI under an AF contract, just before 9/11 I believe, our two 747 Classics were painted all white (as they normally are on short term contracts), and AF maintenance was organizing to get both their tails (only) painted in AF colours, since the contract looked like going on for some time.
Amazingly, the AF pilots threatened to go on strike if the AAI airplanes were painted in AF colours.

We were surprised, though it didn't concern us either way, but it was the point of many jokes about AF pilots after that!

..things one remembers...

Cheers...FD...
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Old 14th Nov 2008, 03:48
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Airfrance pilots typical:

That the ones who "invited the air molecules",one of the best paid pilots,for sure the ones who worked the less so it is completely unacceptable that they work after the age of 60,of course.
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Old 14th Nov 2008, 05:10
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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MeMyself wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60.
Yes you are wrong!

BA allows the option for pilots to work to 65, to force retirement at 60 would be against the law. Not that the laws seem to bother the French
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Old 14th Nov 2008, 07:25
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Myself being French (me) but not working for AF, I do not particularly want to work until 65 BUT I want to have the option to. Believe it or not, some people really enjoy flying, turning up for work in a nice place, with nice colleagues, all that at the beginning of a great day (I enjoy the days off spent on my boat too). Ok it may not be that common on airliners but that as nothing to do with age, it's just something I have found boring already in my 30s. So being forced to retire or to continue is against my idea of a modern society.

I see nothing wrong for the individual to decide what suits him best and AF guys get my support only if they are not forcing something onto the unwilling to "agree".

I thought the "Ben Dover" joke from Sud747 was very funny ...
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Old 14th Nov 2008, 09:49
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Can anyone tell me if KLM out of Amsterdam are also going to be on strike for the next 4 days?

thanks
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