Air France Pilot Strike - where's the news?
A Runyonesque Character
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Air France Pilot Strike - where's the news?
A four-day pilots' strike, starting tomorrow, will ground at least half Air France flights. No sign of anything in R&N, nor in Airlines & Airports, nor in the French forum.
As far as my French goes, it seems to be in protest against the proposed raising of the retirement age to 65. Baffled. I thought pilots got militant about the lowering of retirement age.
What's it all about?
As far as my French goes, it seems to be in protest against the proposed raising of the retirement age to 65. Baffled. I thought pilots got militant about the lowering of retirement age.
What's it all about?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Europe
Age: 65
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is on the travel agents private page
OTHER SUBJECTS National Pilots' Strike from 14 to 17 November 2008
French airline pilots? unions have unanimously called a four-day strike from Friday 14 November at one minute past midnight to Monday 17 November at midnight, to protest against changes to the retirement age currently under discussion in the French Parliament (changing from 60 to 65).
Air France is expecting very severe disruptions to its operations. As things stand, the approximate estimation for Air France for Friday 14 November is the cancellation of half its long-haul flights from Paris and the same for medium-haul flights. More cancellations to long-haul flights are expected as the strike progresses.
Information will be updated as the situations evolves.
OTHER SUBJECTS National Pilots' Strike from 14 to 17 November 2008
French airline pilots? unions have unanimously called a four-day strike from Friday 14 November at one minute past midnight to Monday 17 November at midnight, to protest against changes to the retirement age currently under discussion in the French Parliament (changing from 60 to 65).
Air France is expecting very severe disruptions to its operations. As things stand, the approximate estimation for Air France for Friday 14 November is the cancellation of half its long-haul flights from Paris and the same for medium-haul flights. More cancellations to long-haul flights are expected as the strike progresses.
Information will be updated as the situations evolves.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nuclearweapon
Your Consideration About The French Are Absolutly Besides The Point In This Forum.
If You Want We I Can Give You Some Exemples About Your Culture And Behaviour But It Would Be Very Inapropriate In This Forum.
So Why Don't You Log On To Another Website For That Matter???
Moderators Moderate Please
Your Consideration About The French Are Absolutly Besides The Point In This Forum.
If You Want We I Can Give You Some Exemples About Your Culture And Behaviour But It Would Be Very Inapropriate In This Forum.
So Why Don't You Log On To Another Website For That Matter???
Moderators Moderate Please
Pilot of the Airwaves
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Close to the Med
Age: 74
Posts: 812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Neighbour was due to travel from Malaga to Dubai via CDG on AF tomorrow.
He was advised yesterday of the strike and his agent has switched him to LH/Spanair. Despite the strike being said to be over on Monday, his return flights next Friday have been switched to Star Alliance as well. His agent does not trust the French to have fully resolved their dispute by then.
He was advised yesterday of the strike and his agent has switched him to LH/Spanair. Despite the strike being said to be over on Monday, his return flights next Friday have been switched to Star Alliance as well. His agent does not trust the French to have fully resolved their dispute by then.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: London
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sud747
So you are denying the that the French go on strike MANY times a year??? In all different occupations?
We are talking about the same République française arent we?
Take a chill pill, its just a bit of fun!
We are talking about the same République française arent we?
Take a chill pill, its just a bit of fun!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: A25R
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ?
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
French unionisation and old school labour relations have always meant that they are prone to striking more than the Brits. Its a whole different mindset IMHO, but in the current climate with traffic loads declining on a daily basis and airlines losing money left right and centre, one has to question whether Air France can suffer this? The government bailing them out is not something that can be endured for any period of time at the moment.
It sounds like a re-play of Alitalia
It sounds like a re-play of Alitalia
The clocks do seem to run differently in France. We all know the arguments in favour and against. Fact is that nearly all countries have come into line on age 65.
Maybe one of the many well informed french pilots on this site can explain rationally what this is all about. A four day strike at what seems short notice seems a bit over the top. It is stretching disbelief that it can be unanimous as some pilots clearly have a lot to gain.
Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days.
Maybe one of the many well informed french pilots on this site can explain rationally what this is all about. A four day strike at what seems short notice seems a bit over the top. It is stretching disbelief that it can be unanimous as some pilots clearly have a lot to gain.
Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ?
Autobrake3,
You seem to know something I don't. A fat retirement package ??? I wished !!! it is nothing but a laugh.
More than 80 % of AF pilots voted against retirement beyhond 60 almost 2 years ago.
A very small but extremely active group of pilots called PNT65 ( in and outside AF ) with their own agenda ( like fourth wive, alemonied to their ears or no life ) lobbied (very effectively I have to say,) while SNPL was embroiled in its usual constant and useless bickering with, crowning moment, the recently elected chairman handing out his resignation at the beginning of summer after only a few weeks in office, leaving a huge void that was never filled. The " PNT 65" group had a field day lobbying parliament with no one challenging their claims as no election was held until " La rentrée " or end of summer holliday. If you've not lived a typical french " rentrée " then you've missed out on life !!
The newly elected board is made of an interesting mix starting with its chairman, clearly in favor of 65, being overruled by his council who just voted the strike. This is the very man we will see on TV explaining, serious as a heart attack, why the pilots are on srike. Don't say a word.............I know !!!
Now as to the reasons of the strike : Back a couple of weeks ago, in the middle of the night, the french parliament voted an amendment pushing retirement age to 65 after the Transport Secretary, in a letter dated December 2007, swore the rule would never be changed unless talks were held between the government, the pilots and the airlines. No such talks ever took place. If that isn't back stabbing then what is !!!
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60. KLM at 56 and Lufthansa at...... 56 when the law in Germany says 67 ???
The french law doesn't allow AF to have its own collective agreement to by pass that bill. This would be regarded as discrimination. Hence the strike being the only way to try to oppose this bill. Air France would have signed such an agreement with both hands, there would have been no strike and exept for a hanfull, everybody would have walked out happy. They never showed any interest in having pilots over 60 and always very clearly said it. As an employer, they can only stick to the law. They are clearly being punished for something they haven't done and were never interested in having in the first place.
Young F/O's are pissed as hell and it doesn' really matter wether senior captains strike or not, they won't have a copilot to fly with.
It is the worst timing for a strike. I never saw a good one either.
Now, I'm sure this forum will be in no shortage of people explaining how very fitt and fantastic they are at 63 and how they prove it 5 times day to their nearest and dearest after a 14 hours night flight; how the french , once again, have lost the plot BUT :
All it comes to is , a minority deciding for a clearly decided majority and the Governement lying its toush off ( I know, nothing new ).
Unfortunatly, the reaction will me matching the outrage with dire consequences for the airlines and their employees.
Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days.
Short notice ?? In this case they were given 3 weeks notice. Hardly rushed wouldn't you say ?? No airline in its right mind is going to herald a strike 3 weeks in advance facing the very real risk to see booking cancelations by the thousands.
In the newt few days, the governement will come out looking as innocent as a virgin claiming they were offering all kind of sweeteners, which will probably be right.
The idea the french have of negociating goes as follow :
-" I am going to screw you big time "
-People clearly not relishing the prospect
-People stop working disrupting other people's life which isn't exactly a picnic right now.
- Governement says again " I am going to screw you even harder than originally planned.
- People even more cranky disrupt even more by which time hoodle of money has been wasted.
- When governement assesses situation as having reached its " bargaining point " agrees to give all it was prepared to give from the start.
- People walk away with everything they were ready to accept from the start.
- Strike takes place anyway as airlines have already canceled flights and passengers gone to other airlines........never to be seen again.
- Both parties claim landslide victory over other party.
- Life goes on as usual until next crisis.
Last edited by Me Myself; 13th Nov 2008 at 16:17.
I'm bemused that no one mentioned that the decision they are fighting against is optional retirement at 65 (i.e. both cabin crew and pilots can retire latter if they so wish but the current retirement rules, procedures and compensation are still in place).
One might object that it's a step towards eventually changing the retirement age but at this stage there is no such proposal. And there is a strong minority of pilots who is very much pleased by this new regulation.
FWIW
One might object that it's a step towards eventually changing the retirement age but at this stage there is no such proposal. And there is a strong minority of pilots who is very much pleased by this new regulation.
FWIW
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm bemused that no one mentioned that the decision they are fighting against is optional retirement at 65 (i.e. both cabin crew and pilots can retire latter if they so wish but the current retirement rules, procedures and compensation are still in place).
One might object that it's a step towards eventually changing the retirement age but at this stage there is no such proposal. And there is a strong minority of pilots who is very much pleased by this new regulation
One might object that it's a step towards eventually changing the retirement age but at this stage there is no such proposal. And there is a strong minority of pilots who is very much pleased by this new regulation
In a normal country, all this should have taken place over a reasonably long period of time to allow some form of peace and reason. In France, it had to happen during the summer when no one is watching hoping that it'll do the trick. Well, it doesn't by all account.
Air France chairman was on radion trying to explain something that is totally out of his hands.
Here is a clear case of a minority poking the snake pitt with a stick and reaping out the benefits looking like a bunch of f.....g angels. Beauty
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Choroni, sometimes
Posts: 1,974
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
is it not a european law ? anti age discrimination law?
Judges had safety concerns as main argument.
Funny, Sub-Companies of LH like Ctyline and LH-Cargo don't have the 60-Limit....
Quote:
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ?
Autobrake3,
You seem to know something I don't. A fat retirement package ??? I wished !!! it is nothing but a laugh.
More than 80 % of AF pilots voted against retirement beyhond 60 almost 2 years ago.
A very small but extremely active group of pilots called PNT65 ( in and outside AF ) with their own agenda ( like fourth wive, alemonied to their ears or no life ) lobbied (very effectively I have to say,) while SNPL was embroiled in its usual constant and useless bickering with, crowning moment, the recently elected chairman handing out his resignation at the beginning of summer after only a few weeks in office, leaving a huge void that was never filled. The " PNT 65" group had a field day lobbying parliament with no one challenging their claims as no election was held until " La rentrée " or end of summer holliday. If you've not lived a typical french " rentrée " then you've missed out on life !!
The newly elected board is made of an interesting mix starting with its chairman, clearly in favor of 65, being overruled by his council who just voted the strike. This is the very man we will see on TV explaining, serious as a heart attack, why the pilots are on srike. Don't say a word.............I know !!!
Now as to the reasons of the strike : Back a couple of weeks ago, in the middle of the night, the french parliament voted an amendment pushing retirement age to 65 after the Transport Secretary, in a letter dated December 2007, swore the rule would never be changed unless talks were held between the government, the pilots and the airlines. No such talks ever took place. If that isn't back stabbing then what is !!!
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60. KLM at 56 and Lufthansa at...... 56 when the law in Germany says 67 ???
The french law doesn't allow AF to have its own collective agreement to by pass that bill. This would be regarded as discrimination. Hence the strike being the only way to try to oppose this bill. Air France would have signed such an agreement with both hands, there would have been no strike and exept for a hanfull, everybody would have walked out happy. They never showed any interest in having pilots over 60 and always very clearly said it. As an employer, they can only stick to the law. They are clearly being punished for something they haven't done and were never interested in having in the first place.
Young F/O's are pissed as hell and it doesn' really matter wether senior captains strike or not, they won't have a copilot to fly with.
It is the worst timing for a strike. I never saw a good one either.
Now, I'm sure this forum will be in no shortage of people explaining how very fitt and fantastic they are at 63 and how they prove it 5 times day to their nearest and dearest after a 14 hours night flight; how the french , once again, have lost the plot BUT :
All it comes to is , a minority deciding for a clearly decided majority and the Governement lying its toush off ( I know, nothing new ).
Unfortunatly, the reaction will me matching the outrage with dire consequences for the airlines and their employees.
Quote:
Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days.
Precisely my point.
Short notice ?? In this case they were given 3 weeks notice. Hardly rushed wouldn't you say ?? No airline in its right mind is going to herald a strike 3 weeks in advance facing the very real risk to see booking cancelations by the thousands.
In the newt few days, the governement will come out looking as innocent as a virgin claiming they were offering all kind of sweeteners, which will probably be right.
The idea the french have of negociating goes as follow :
-" I am going to screw you big time "
-People clearly not relishing the prospect
-People stop working disrupting other people's life which isn't exactly a picnic right now.
- Governement says again " I am going to screw you even harder than originally planned.
- People even more cranky disrupt even more by which time hoodle of money has been wasted.
- When governement assesses situation as having reached its " bargaining point " agrees to give all it was prepared to give from the start.
- People walk away with everything they were ready to accept from the start.
- Strike takes place anyway as airlines have already canceled flights and passengers gone to other airlines........never to be seen again.
- Both parties claim landslide victory over other party.
- Life goes on as usual until next crisis.
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ?
Autobrake3,
You seem to know something I don't. A fat retirement package ??? I wished !!! it is nothing but a laugh.
More than 80 % of AF pilots voted against retirement beyhond 60 almost 2 years ago.
A very small but extremely active group of pilots called PNT65 ( in and outside AF ) with their own agenda ( like fourth wive, alemonied to their ears or no life ) lobbied (very effectively I have to say,) while SNPL was embroiled in its usual constant and useless bickering with, crowning moment, the recently elected chairman handing out his resignation at the beginning of summer after only a few weeks in office, leaving a huge void that was never filled. The " PNT 65" group had a field day lobbying parliament with no one challenging their claims as no election was held until " La rentrée " or end of summer holliday. If you've not lived a typical french " rentrée " then you've missed out on life !!
The newly elected board is made of an interesting mix starting with its chairman, clearly in favor of 65, being overruled by his council who just voted the strike. This is the very man we will see on TV explaining, serious as a heart attack, why the pilots are on srike. Don't say a word.............I know !!!
Now as to the reasons of the strike : Back a couple of weeks ago, in the middle of the night, the french parliament voted an amendment pushing retirement age to 65 after the Transport Secretary, in a letter dated December 2007, swore the rule would never be changed unless talks were held between the government, the pilots and the airlines. No such talks ever took place. If that isn't back stabbing then what is !!!
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60. KLM at 56 and Lufthansa at...... 56 when the law in Germany says 67 ???
The french law doesn't allow AF to have its own collective agreement to by pass that bill. This would be regarded as discrimination. Hence the strike being the only way to try to oppose this bill. Air France would have signed such an agreement with both hands, there would have been no strike and exept for a hanfull, everybody would have walked out happy. They never showed any interest in having pilots over 60 and always very clearly said it. As an employer, they can only stick to the law. They are clearly being punished for something they haven't done and were never interested in having in the first place.
Young F/O's are pissed as hell and it doesn' really matter wether senior captains strike or not, they won't have a copilot to fly with.
It is the worst timing for a strike. I never saw a good one either.
Now, I'm sure this forum will be in no shortage of people explaining how very fitt and fantastic they are at 63 and how they prove it 5 times day to their nearest and dearest after a 14 hours night flight; how the french , once again, have lost the plot BUT :
All it comes to is , a minority deciding for a clearly decided majority and the Governement lying its toush off ( I know, nothing new ).
Unfortunatly, the reaction will me matching the outrage with dire consequences for the airlines and their employees.
Quote:
Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days.
Precisely my point.
Short notice ?? In this case they were given 3 weeks notice. Hardly rushed wouldn't you say ?? No airline in its right mind is going to herald a strike 3 weeks in advance facing the very real risk to see booking cancelations by the thousands.
In the newt few days, the governement will come out looking as innocent as a virgin claiming they were offering all kind of sweeteners, which will probably be right.
The idea the french have of negociating goes as follow :
-" I am going to screw you big time "
-People clearly not relishing the prospect
-People stop working disrupting other people's life which isn't exactly a picnic right now.
- Governement says again " I am going to screw you even harder than originally planned.
- People even more cranky disrupt even more by which time hoodle of money has been wasted.
- When governement assesses situation as having reached its " bargaining point " agrees to give all it was prepared to give from the start.
- People walk away with everything they were ready to accept from the start.
- Strike takes place anyway as airlines have already canceled flights and passengers gone to other airlines........never to be seen again.
- Both parties claim landslide victory over other party.
- Life goes on as usual until next crisis.
But the French know best and refuse to listen, especially directives that come from the EU (they pick and choose what they want the EU to be, as long as it is in their favour).
After living there for 6 years and going back home, I can't say I miss the inefficiency, refusal to listen, strike-a-day mentality of french workers but it is mostly the refusal, nay, active resistance to change that they show. Quite sad actually...
And not directed to the poster I quoted But Capitalizing Every First Letter Of Your Words Is Incredibly Annoying And Useless...
Tabarnak do they need a kick in the ass...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And apart from venting might I be as bold as asking.............what the f...k is your point regarding this particular topic ???
Yeah mate, rue St Catherine looks real slick for sure !!!
Since you've just arrived from the planet Krypton after a very long absence let me feel you in with the latest :
- Subprimes
- Ninja loans
- Trillions of $ and CAN $ of credit card debt. debtors unable to pay principal.
- 8 millions home reposession to take place in the US in 2009 alone
- Thousands of jobs lost in the financial industry alone, more to come elsewhere.
- Retail industry about to go tits up
- Xmas won't be all that merry and jolly
The economy has been going up for 15 years
......................and came down with a very loud thudddddddddddddddddddddddddddd !!!!
Yeah mate, rue St Catherine looks real slick for sure !!!
The economy has been going up for 15 years globally and the situation in France has stayed static since the early 90's. Can you imagine what a global recession will do them?
- Subprimes
- Ninja loans
- Trillions of $ and CAN $ of credit card debt. debtors unable to pay principal.
- 8 millions home reposession to take place in the US in 2009 alone
- Thousands of jobs lost in the financial industry alone, more to come elsewhere.
- Retail industry about to go tits up
- Xmas won't be all that merry and jolly
The economy has been going up for 15 years
......................and came down with a very loud thudddddddddddddddddddddddddddd !!!!
Last edited by Me Myself; 13th Nov 2008 at 18:58.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West Yorkshire Zone
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote
A four-day pilots' strike, starting tomorrow, will ground at least half Air France flights. No sign of anything in R&N, nor in Airlines & Airports, nor in the French forum.
Reply
Probably because about 90% of us are not french = So it doesn't affect us.
A four-day pilots' strike, starting tomorrow, will ground at least half Air France flights. No sign of anything in R&N, nor in Airlines & Airports, nor in the French forum.
Reply
Probably because about 90% of us are not french = So it doesn't affect us.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: planet earth
Age: 72
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The news is that the French government has the intention to skip the 60 years age limit in JAR-FCL-3 for the French pilots in 2010.
Air France pilots are highly dependant on the French state pension scheme. The state pension is not going to pay any pilot at age 60 when they are legally allowed to fly until age 65.
Don't you think that's a worthy case for a 4-day strike?
Their blue Dutch company still has age 56 as retirement age (and they intend to keep it that way), but these guys have a well funded pension scheme and are independent of state pension schemes.
The gap between the French and Dutch is going to widen more...
Air France pilots are highly dependant on the French state pension scheme. The state pension is not going to pay any pilot at age 60 when they are legally allowed to fly until age 65.
Don't you think that's a worthy case for a 4-day strike?
Their blue Dutch company still has age 56 as retirement age (and they intend to keep it that way), but these guys have a well funded pension scheme and are independent of state pension schemes.
The gap between the French and Dutch is going to widen more...