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Aeroflot B737 Down near Perm

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Aeroflot B737 Down near Perm

Old 1st Feb 2010, 11:53
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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No, the autothrottle during the whole flight was working as it should. However, the pilots did not really succeed in moving the throttles manually after disconnecting the autothrottle.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 13:14
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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I was shocked when I read it.

Last edited by Aviaservice; 30th Aug 2010 at 19:25.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 13:44
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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As far as I can judge the cockpit was occupied by two idiots!
easy to say but we must understand why
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 14:29
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Was the sequence started by a faulty autothrottle causing asymetric thrust and then 'suboptimal' crew response ?
The other way around. The auto throttle was compensating for the asymmetric thrust until it could compensate no more and cut out as per design.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 14:40
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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but we must understand why
due to pilot shortage those guys were quickly re-trained so they were marginally proficient on the Boeing. Plus they were confused abt navigation, one was inebriated, the plane was listing to one side. They were used to an easier workload in a 4 man cockpit, so they just couldn't handle it IMO.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 15:00
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Moreover, I've spoken with man who was re-training this crew. He said that they had a conflict situations with each other during re-training flights!
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 15:13
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due to pilot shortage those guys were quickly re-trained so they were marginally proficient on the Boeing. Plus they were confused abt navigation, one was inebriated, the plane was listing to one side. They were used to an easier workload in a 4 man cockpit, so they just couldn't handle it IMO.
Today 10:29
Thanks, I can better accept the video reconstruction now. It almost seemed as if the PF was unsure which way to turn the yoke.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 15:21
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for clarification

That understanding makes the video quite a horror movie
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 16:31
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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The translate of radiotraffic with crew speech.

YouTube - PERM CRASH

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821 request right turn to final.

ATC: Aerfolot 821 did you set altimeter 997 hpa?

Copilot to ATC: Aeroflot 99..aa, sorry, Aeroflot 921, 997 set, descending 600, turning right to final.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, roger, distance 20(km), offset 10(km), turn to base when you will be ready.

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, descending 600, turning base.

ATC: Roger.

Captain: F.ck! We're gonna be at the point (unknown), and we have to do "gear down" and other bull****.

Crew: Gear down, flaps 15.

Captain: (115) checked.

Crew: (slurred speech) F.ck, speed! Speed is increasing again.

Captain to Copilot: 150, what speed did you set? 150, ok. What are you doing? Ok. Do you see? We are flying higher.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, What is your heading?

Copilot to ATC: Aeroflot 821, approaching to final turn, heading 170.

ATC: Roger, distance to final 6(km), follow to distance 10(km) with your heading.

Copilot: Aeroflot 821, roger.

Copilot: we should turn there a little.

Captain: we've turned on the left.

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, Gears and flaps is down, approach will be provided.

ATC: Roger, distance 17, with Start 124.0
Copilot(simultaneosly): Flaps 30

Captain to ATC: with Start 124.0 Aeroflot 821.

Captain to Copilot: What?

Copilot: Flaps 30

Captain: Ok, 30, speed, go ahead, f.ck, set 24.0, yes, He has said!

Copilot: Yes!

Captain: just do it by yourself!
Copilot: What must I do?


Captain to ATC: Perm posadka, Aeroflot 821, good night, approaching to final turn, 600.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, Perm Start, good morning, distance 13.5, right offset 3000(meters)

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, request meteorogical condition.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, Visibility 10, cloud ceiling 240(m), rain.

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, roger, tnx.

Copilot: Speed!

ATC: Aeroflot 821, distance 13, you are approaching to glideslope.

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, you are approaching to final.

Captain to ATC: 821.

Copilot: F.ck!

Captain: VOR/LOC armed, VOR/LOC

Captain to Copilot: Increase,increase (about thrust)

Captain: So, flaps 30, what speed must be set? F.ck your mother!

Copilot: 140..133.

ATC: You are climbing, you altitude 900, confirm.

Copilot: F.ck

Captain: Aeroflot 821 a-a... affirm climb, descending.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, turn right to heading 360, descent to 600.

Captain to ATC: Turn right to 360, descending 600, Aeroflot 821.

Captain: look at the vertical speed indicator! F.ck!

Copilot: F.ck, Rodion (Captain's name). F.ck! Where is it?


Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, You mind if I continue approach?

Copilot: Heh! Where are you? What are you doing?

ATC: 821, heading 360, descend 600, expect "go around" procedure!

Captain to ATC: 360, descending 600, Aeroflot 821.

ATC: 821, Are you all right?

Captain: Aeroflot 821, affirm.

ATC: 821, Roger, you must perform my instruction strictly! Expect vectoring to final, turn right 360, descend 600

Captain to ATC: descending 600, heading 360, Aeroflot 821.

Copilot: Take the control! Take!
Captain: I can't! You take!


Copilot: Turn back!!!

Crew: F.ck!

Copilot: F.ck, what are we doing?

ATC: with Approach 121.7

Copilot: F.ck your mother! F.ck up!

Last edited by Aviaservice; 1st Feb 2010 at 20:40.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 18:15
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Watching that video and reading the transcript on the side makes for quite a horror-story. Correcting to the wrong side, not being sure what to do and overwhelmed by simply flying is not really good.

Guess there are several things to learn. Thorough training is absolutely paramount when switching from one AI presentation to another, even more so when switching between fundamentally different operated airplanes (4 vs 2 man crew), as well as a healthy reporting culture about substance abuse of flight crews.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 21:27
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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To the best of my knowledge the accident of a Crossair Saab 340 in Nassenwil near Zurich, Switzerland, was due to a eastern pilot as PF and a different design of the eastern and western artificial horizons.

Having read the transcript and watched the video where any correction of "Bank Angle" warnings lead to even steeper turns make one think of the artificial horizon.

Read with interest the previous posters comments about CRM during training - and what about the alcohol ?
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Old 2nd Feb 2010, 15:50
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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East is east and west is west...

actually the good old USSR used both types of AIs for decades, didn't seem to cause many issues. On the other hand those guys had spent years staring at a different type of AI, so confusion may be possible.
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 17:19
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Can Someone explain to a non pilot exactly what happened here ?

As a very regular pax can someone explain to me briefly in Laymans language exactly what happened in relation to the cause of crash ?

I read the cockpit transcript and watched the you tube video and it frightened the crapout of me ! I sometimes have to fly Aeroflot . so you can understand my concern .
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 19:39
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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As a very regular pax can someone explain to me briefly in Laymans language exactly what happened in relation to the cause of crash ?

I read the cockpit transcript and watched the you tube video and it frightened the crapout of me ! I sometimes have to fly Aeroflot . so you can understand my concern .
I thought that the following post by

Vovachan below was sucinct enough. If you want to lessen your concern than you would have to delve much deeper into the corrective actions recommended by the investigating agency, if any, and the addressing of these concerns by the operator

due to pilot shortage those guys were quickly re-trained so they were marginally proficient on the Boeing. Plus they were confused abt navigation, one was inebriated, the plane was listing to one side. They were used to an easier workload in a 4 man cockpit, so they just couldn't handle it IMO.

Last edited by lomapaseo; 9th Feb 2010 at 00:03.
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 21:31
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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To this I might add that the crashed flight even though it nominally flew under the Aeroflot flag was operated by a smaller regional co.

My concern is with the massive retirement of their legacy Soviet fleets in recent years replaced with Airbuses and Boeings, where do the Russians get the qualified ppl to fly them???
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Old 15th Mar 2010, 21:32
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Russia's Prosecutor General's Office declares that the pilot flying was intoxicated, and became disoriented.

Alcohol Cited in 2008 Russian Crash - NYTimes.com
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