infrequentflyer789

Interesting. This passage caught my eye:

"then you will start to hear strange noises as the combustion becomes unstable in the engine. You will hear a low rumble as parts of the ejector nozzles become too lean to burn."

Various news reports have eye witnesses reporting odd engine noises ("roaring" and "rumbling")...

Chris Scott

Oldlae,

Yeah - Guess that's the point grebllaw123d was making. So, I suppose we can assume that the 200ER has not been fitted with the fuel scavenge system design changes that the Service Bulletin is addressing.

Smilin_Ed

The AAIB report says that the compressor inlet guide vanes responded properly to the demand for more power.

SeldomFixit

....which loaded the compressors more, without the required F/F increase....

spannersatKL

Wilyflyer
See the AAIB report that shows that whilst the fire handles were pulled the LP valves did not close....the crew shut down procedures has now been modified...

wilyflier

SpannersatKL
..Yes,but the engines should have been unable to run if the HP cocks were closed by the fire drill , thus still a little niggle about not much fuel should have been leaking if the engines really continued to run on the ground ,(which I doubt)
..But a bigger niggle as to was there evidence was to show the CWTs were really as dry as they should have been by then; in order to disprove any ice block misbehaviour of the CWT scavenge systems?

lomapaseo

SeldomFixit



even I can't read between the lines when there are no lines posted as a reference to your post

airfoilmod

With all due respect, "what's Old is New again." Noises on approach, human factors, stall avoidance, etc. 108 knots with an AOA at that value, is Scary. That Aircraft is not to be stalled, period. (Notwithstanding nonsense replies from bug smasher pilots.) Fuel exhaustion is still on the table, but so is information starvation. This thread is on life support.

FAStoat

Oh by the way,am I correct in thinking David Learmont said in one of the initial reports that the Crew experienced a slight Power Surge problem when they came off the Lam hold????This has not been mentioned in any of the threads I have read,or is a figment of my imagination?

F14

err, wasn't GB flying a BA777 too??

Think u'll find it was good old Vmca on approach, long flight tired crew. Engine No2 failed (check the pics) Crew went heads in, didn't spot speed decay till below Vmca, ie, cannot go around!! must trade height for speed.
The lads did a good job because every body walked away, however couldn't be a great landing because unable to use the aircraft again.

Basically there are no "new" aircraft accidents, just a swiss cheese that when the holes in training, hardware, automatics and Humans line up we get an incident...

Smilin_Ed

Everyone keeps forgetting that the original report by the AAIB says that the fuel metering valves opened in response to the Autothrottle and the crew's movement of the power levers. This means that the engines should have accelerated but instead, they hung up at just above idle. This clearly indicates a lack of sufficient fuel at the fuel metering valves. The real question is why?
[/COLOR]

SilsoeSid

DingerX
How about anywhere between Hounslow and the crash site!



Or
Within 2 miles of the crash site....anywhere in this picture!



Or
Anywhere east of 27L threshold with the aircraft below 10,560'!



Or if you want a road map, how about an autoroute route from Downing Street to Heathrow.
Notice, if you will, how the A4 dips nicely south towards the approach path!

X-37

Why are so many posts hostile to the idea of electronic interference?
The AAIB have not ruled this out in fact they don't seem to know what caused the accident.
It could be electronic, it could be that contaminated fuel got to both engines within 7 seconds ( or rather fuel didn't get to..).
Incidentally Both lifts in the Control Tower failed at exactly the moment of the incident. This may not be relevant, on the other hand it may well be. Was the accident caused by fuel,was it a burst of RF, was it Gordon Brown, was it onboard cellphones/laptops????
None of us here know the cause.
The AAIB are not saying, so all bets are on until they tell us what happened.

grumpyoldgeek

Because many of us have worked in electronics for years. We intuitively understand antenna theory, the inverse square law and the incredible difficulty of transmitting significant amounts of electrical energy through air.

tubby linton

This tool is interesting.The last time I looked I think the day of the accident had been sanitised.
http://lhr.webtrak-lochard.com/template/index.html

airsound

It certainly is, tubby. Thanks for the heads up. Shame about 17 Jan though.

airsound

Green-dot

With respect to all with a profession in aviation, regardless of background, intuition does not always win it from the facts.

I personally had to replace main fuel shutoff valves in engine feed systems (back in the 1980s) because intuition and inverse square laws did not prevent them from closing in an unscheduled manner then. The valves were redesigned and the wiring was provided with an improved electrical connector. And guess what, EMI filter modules were added between the connector and fuel shutoff valve.

I won't go into specific details here, not about what i wrote above nor specific T7 details, not that it matters much because i have noticed that a thread posted by me regarding a GENERAL explanation of the EMI phenomenon yesterday has been removed without the decency of the "puppet-masters" on this forum to explain to me as to why!!! And it has not been the first time with regards to BA038. That makes me wonder.


Regards,
Green-dot

Del Prado

I believe that was an on going problem throughout the day and NOT coincident with the accident.

grumpyoldgeek

Means nothing unless you know that the fault was caused by *radiated* EMI rather than conducted.

Oldlae

The AAIB bulletin stated that the fuel control system was working, the open spar valves were blamed on a faulty shut-down procedure, so it is unlikely that all the RF and the PM's ECM affected the elecrics. So it is obvious innit, all the RF and ECM made the fuel boil thus sending fuel vapour to the engines, causing cavitation and lack of thrust.