Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug
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scimitar,
(particularly carbis22 who has shown himself to be a complete @rse!) maybe you can learn something from this. Just remember that the crew (both flight deck and cabin)
BMJ or NEMJ, posting 5th July 2007, Boeing research into hape, hace and ams.
(particularly carbis22 who has shown himself to be a complete @rse!) maybe you can learn something from this. Just remember that the crew (both flight deck and cabin)
BMJ or NEMJ, posting 5th July 2007, Boeing research into hape, hace and ams.
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"Just remember that the crew (both flight deck and cabin) are very highly trained professionals who, in any emergency situation, will be doing just what they have been trained to do."
And therein lies the truth....they have been trained, in fact drilled in the emergency situation...not just read what to do from a book or attended a lecture, they have carried out the process over and over again until it's second nature.
It really is not fair to keep criticising the passengers from the comfort of a keyboard. You can read legislative safety briefings to passengers until you are blue in the face (no oxygen pun intended) but unless they have experienced a mask dropping down and have pulled it onto their face and understood not to expect a rush of flowing gas, they will not know what to expect. Same for lifejackets...can you imagine what it would be really like trying to get 350 people to put their jackets on in an emergency?
The reality is that these events are few and far between and when something happens, it's either like this one, a trained-for event for the crew which increases the heartbeat slightly (but obviously frightening for those in the back) or an absolute no hoper as seen in Madrid, where a safety briefing is irrelevant.
And therein lies the truth....they have been trained, in fact drilled in the emergency situation...not just read what to do from a book or attended a lecture, they have carried out the process over and over again until it's second nature.
It really is not fair to keep criticising the passengers from the comfort of a keyboard. You can read legislative safety briefings to passengers until you are blue in the face (no oxygen pun intended) but unless they have experienced a mask dropping down and have pulled it onto their face and understood not to expect a rush of flowing gas, they will not know what to expect. Same for lifejackets...can you imagine what it would be really like trying to get 350 people to put their jackets on in an emergency?
The reality is that these events are few and far between and when something happens, it's either like this one, a trained-for event for the crew which increases the heartbeat slightly (but obviously frightening for those in the back) or an absolute no hoper as seen in Madrid, where a safety briefing is irrelevant.
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Seat62K said... "My understanding is that some passengers needed medical attention because the rapid descent had caused ear difficulties. I have heard of perforated eardrums in such circumstances."
In this case, any ear problems would have been caused by the DEPRESSURISATION event itself, not the speed of the descent. High rates of descent CAN cause ear difficulties in NORMAL operations as with some aircraft the standard cabin pressure rate of change cannot keep up with a rapid aircraft descent and therefore has to be increased thus causing discomfort to some.
In this case, any ear problems would have been caused by the DEPRESSURISATION event itself, not the speed of the descent. High rates of descent CAN cause ear difficulties in NORMAL operations as with some aircraft the standard cabin pressure rate of change cannot keep up with a rapid aircraft descent and therefore has to be increased thus causing discomfort to some.
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dicksorchard: I flew to Limoges with FR and the cabin crew during the safety demonstration were in fits of giggles to the point that the demonstration had to be interrupted several times while they recomposed themselves. Not amusing.
Was once on a BD flight where the safety video didn't work and the crew couldn't pull together the manual demonstration at all. In fact, I'm sure on every airline flying, there has been a passenger who could tell a story of this nature.
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This is a classic difference of perceptions.
Flight deck and cabin crew have been taught from day one to view flying from one perspective while passengers have been brainwashed by the airlines to view flying from an entirely different one. When something goes wrong and shocks passengers from this dream, the result is what we see here.
Flight deck and cabin crew know that flying, while very safe, is fraught with potential dangers, and have been trained to deal with them. In the unlikely event that something unusual does happen, they hopefully have the presence of mind to deal with it as they have been trained to.
Passengers have been lulled by airlines into thinking that flying isn't much different from sitting in their living rooms. You have music, video, magazines, food, etc. to distract you from the fact that you're hurtling through space in a metal tube. The upper classes can get downright luxurious. The airlines really don't want them to be thinking about anything that might go wrong. Safety briefings are often perfunctory, saying just enough to satisfy the FARs. And for 99.99% of the time, this is sufficient. When something does go wrong, is it any wonder that passengers are totally unprepared to deal with it? They likely have no idea what to expect, no way to assess the level of danger, no experience with processing all the sensations they are encountering. They are frightened, in shock, adrenalin pumping, and each individual reacts to this differently. How could anyone expect rational thought from them. They feel helpless and are completely at the mercy of the crew, who they look to for guidance.
Telling passengers to pay attention to the safety briefing isn't going to help much. Nothing can prepare passengers for what they will actually experience if they haven't been through it before. Pity the poor passengers on that recent Quantas flight. Why should they be expected to experience anything other than absolute fear when without warning their peaceful flight is suddenly interrupted by complete pandemonium? Other than perhaps a few, who among them should be expected to maintain the presence of mind to do exactly as they were told during the three-minute briefing that occurred hours earlier. All they are thinking about at that moment is the sudden realization of their mortality and that they are, in fact, hurtling through the air at a great height with tremendous speed in a flimsy metal tube.
Flight deck and cabin crew have been taught from day one to view flying from one perspective while passengers have been brainwashed by the airlines to view flying from an entirely different one. When something goes wrong and shocks passengers from this dream, the result is what we see here.
Flight deck and cabin crew know that flying, while very safe, is fraught with potential dangers, and have been trained to deal with them. In the unlikely event that something unusual does happen, they hopefully have the presence of mind to deal with it as they have been trained to.
Passengers have been lulled by airlines into thinking that flying isn't much different from sitting in their living rooms. You have music, video, magazines, food, etc. to distract you from the fact that you're hurtling through space in a metal tube. The upper classes can get downright luxurious. The airlines really don't want them to be thinking about anything that might go wrong. Safety briefings are often perfunctory, saying just enough to satisfy the FARs. And for 99.99% of the time, this is sufficient. When something does go wrong, is it any wonder that passengers are totally unprepared to deal with it? They likely have no idea what to expect, no way to assess the level of danger, no experience with processing all the sensations they are encountering. They are frightened, in shock, adrenalin pumping, and each individual reacts to this differently. How could anyone expect rational thought from them. They feel helpless and are completely at the mercy of the crew, who they look to for guidance.
Telling passengers to pay attention to the safety briefing isn't going to help much. Nothing can prepare passengers for what they will actually experience if they haven't been through it before. Pity the poor passengers on that recent Quantas flight. Why should they be expected to experience anything other than absolute fear when without warning their peaceful flight is suddenly interrupted by complete pandemonium? Other than perhaps a few, who among them should be expected to maintain the presence of mind to do exactly as they were told during the three-minute briefing that occurred hours earlier. All they are thinking about at that moment is the sudden realization of their mortality and that they are, in fact, hurtling through the air at a great height with tremendous speed in a flimsy metal tube.
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Hi,
Due to my job (offshore drilling) I make (mandatory) full survival courses for helicopters ditching ... etc..... in real environnement
I must recognize .. it's completely different (physics and mental) of what you read in a safety leaflet.
So for be honest ... yes the passengers must be feel naked facing a emergency situation.
I understand their fears and comments.
Now.. I see a insurmontable difficulty (no faisable) to implement mandatory real safety courses for airlines passengers .
Cheers.
Due to my job (offshore drilling) I make (mandatory) full survival courses for helicopters ditching ... etc..... in real environnement
I must recognize .. it's completely different (physics and mental) of what you read in a safety leaflet.
So for be honest ... yes the passengers must be feel naked facing a emergency situation.
I understand their fears and comments.
Now.. I see a insurmontable difficulty (no faisable) to implement mandatory real safety courses for airlines passengers .
Cheers.
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Did not wade through the pages so appoligies if someone already posted this, but for those like me who went to the last page
here is the current Ryanair safty brief
YouTube - Ryanair cheap flights funny
here is the current Ryanair safty brief
YouTube - Ryanair cheap flights funny
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There are many valid points. Kudos indeed to the Ryanair crew who did a great job and brought everyone to safety.
It's interesting reading the reactions of pax on this flight, and those on the Qantas a month or so ago. The Qantas pax were in a similar situation - well, except for that huge hole in the fuselage - in that they weren't told about the descent until after the crew had brought the plane to a safe altitude. And again, after that questions were raised about PAs (though not in as much excruciating detail as this incident) and possibility of automated PAs.
Automated PA's are possible. Those who read about the accidental triggering of the water emergency on a BA flight a few weeks back will know. I'm guessing at some point the authorities will insist that additional information for depressurisation events (ie, not including another explanation on how to deploy the oxygen) be included in safety briefings as a result of these two high profile events (which, by the way - MSNBC was headlining as "Mid air panic as jet plunges 26,000ft"). However, as only about 10-20% of pax listen to the briefing in the first place, where's the blame going to go in a depressurisation event? Rock and hard place spring to mind.
But again - well done to the Ryanair crew who brought them to safety by following procedures!
Oh! and a final point from me. If you listened to that extract from the Today programme, did people pick up on this Arctic explorer's assumption as to why the masks "weren't working"? It was something along the lines of "perhaps the pilot thought the emergency oxygen didn't need switching on..."
It's interesting reading the reactions of pax on this flight, and those on the Qantas a month or so ago. The Qantas pax were in a similar situation - well, except for that huge hole in the fuselage - in that they weren't told about the descent until after the crew had brought the plane to a safe altitude. And again, after that questions were raised about PAs (though not in as much excruciating detail as this incident) and possibility of automated PAs.
Automated PA's are possible. Those who read about the accidental triggering of the water emergency on a BA flight a few weeks back will know. I'm guessing at some point the authorities will insist that additional information for depressurisation events (ie, not including another explanation on how to deploy the oxygen) be included in safety briefings as a result of these two high profile events (which, by the way - MSNBC was headlining as "Mid air panic as jet plunges 26,000ft"). However, as only about 10-20% of pax listen to the briefing in the first place, where's the blame going to go in a depressurisation event? Rock and hard place spring to mind.
But again - well done to the Ryanair crew who brought them to safety by following procedures!
Oh! and a final point from me. If you listened to that extract from the Today programme, did people pick up on this Arctic explorer's assumption as to why the masks "weren't working"? It was something along the lines of "perhaps the pilot thought the emergency oxygen didn't need switching on..."
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Well done Ryanair, everyone safe and sound is the desirable outcome. 
Don't listen to Pen Hadow. He doesn't understand that you were just too busy with emergency procedures to personally come to him and explain exactly what was going on during the "main situation". I think his feelings were hurt!!!
Don't listen to Pen Hadow. He doesn't understand that you were just too busy with emergency procedures to personally come to him and explain exactly what was going on during the "main situation". I think his feelings were hurt!!!
Quite a lot of safety- and operations-critical stuff (and not very critical at all stuff) has some form of "it works" indicator. For example, the UK's nuclear warning system in the cold war propagated a regular beep over the wires all the time; you turned up the volume to check it was there. It was officially described as a "confidence tone".
Telecoms engineers these days actually add artificial "line noise" so you know the phone hasn't gone dead when it's actually waiting for a switch somewhere to respond. The system itself would give you pure silence; we got so good at acoustic and line echo cancellation that a significant percentage of callers think the line is dead and hang up. On less critical things, folk do this all the time; if you have a progress bar on some piece of software, users will actually perceive it as working faster if it makes steady progress rather than jumping forwards as each (whatever) is completed.
So yes, oxy feedback please. At the very least it'll save me having to put up with Sid & Doris Bonkers in the next two seats trying to yell that the bag hasn't inflated through their masks.
Telecoms engineers these days actually add artificial "line noise" so you know the phone hasn't gone dead when it's actually waiting for a switch somewhere to respond. The system itself would give you pure silence; we got so good at acoustic and line echo cancellation that a significant percentage of callers think the line is dead and hang up. On less critical things, folk do this all the time; if you have a progress bar on some piece of software, users will actually perceive it as working faster if it makes steady progress rather than jumping forwards as each (whatever) is completed.
So yes, oxy feedback please. At the very least it'll save me having to put up with Sid & Doris Bonkers in the next two seats trying to yell that the bag hasn't inflated through their masks.
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There's a Ryan Air safety briefing there also YouTube - Ryanair safety demo
No mention of tugging on the oxygen masks to operate them and it clearly says 'adults traveling with children should attent to their own masks first'. It also reminds pax to read the safety card which iirc covers everything in the briefing. Pretty much the same routine as any full cost airline.
Could Mr Pen Hadows middle name name be Is ?...just thinking out loud.
No mention of tugging on the oxygen masks to operate them and it clearly says 'adults traveling with children should attent to their own masks first'. It also reminds pax to read the safety card which iirc covers everything in the briefing. Pretty much the same routine as any full cost airline.
Could Mr Pen Hadows middle name name be Is ?...just thinking out loud.
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Steam chicken
As mentioned in my previous post - allay Sid and Doris' fear by pointing to flow indicator on each pax mask ( half way up or therabouts on tubing) - its turned green! Thank the Lord - Hypoxia and imminent death avoided !
As mentioned in my previous post - allay Sid and Doris' fear by pointing to flow indicator on each pax mask ( half way up or therabouts on tubing) - its turned green! Thank the Lord - Hypoxia and imminent death avoided !
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This thread is worrying and it shows the gap between pros and the public. I work in IT and it dawned on me one day that our users didn't really understand what we all took for granted.
This thread is the same. Passengers don't know what the Pros know. They don't know whether to tug or not, they certainly don't know if the bag inflates or note (and there seems to bea lack ofclarity on this). They are insulted and told that if they had listened to the 3min safety briefing they'd have been alright.
If a 3min safety briefing is enough to teach you how to put on a life jacket, use emergency oxygen and open emergency doors then why do cabin crew have to spend sooo much longer learning that ?
People were worried, it's natural, they weren't trained for it. The media reported their fears. An ideal response (to the media reports) would be to detail what happened and also mention that it's usual to have a smell and additional heat when the oxygen candles start to work; that yes the masks are covered in talc so that they don't stick etc.
It's unfair and ignorant to be so brutally critical towards passengers who were shocked and who didn't know what to expect.
This thread is the same. Passengers don't know what the Pros know. They don't know whether to tug or not, they certainly don't know if the bag inflates or note (and there seems to bea lack ofclarity on this). They are insulted and told that if they had listened to the 3min safety briefing they'd have been alright.
If a 3min safety briefing is enough to teach you how to put on a life jacket, use emergency oxygen and open emergency doors then why do cabin crew have to spend sooo much longer learning that ?
People were worried, it's natural, they weren't trained for it. The media reported their fears. An ideal response (to the media reports) would be to detail what happened and also mention that it's usual to have a smell and additional heat when the oxygen candles start to work; that yes the masks are covered in talc so that they don't stick etc.
It's unfair and ignorant to be so brutally critical towards passengers who were shocked and who didn't know what to expect.
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censorship rules, OK . . . . . . . ?
Interesting to note that although polite and relevant comments have been removed from here (very recently) , offensive and inaccurate stuff such as
is allowed to remain in situ. . . . . . . .
Presumably this one will go the same way . . . . . no explanation, of course !
particularly carbis22 who has shown himself to be a complete . . . . .
Presumably this one will go the same way . . . . . no explanation, of course !
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You've raised a valid point parsi but let's play devils advocate here. The next time you fly, just look around you and observe how many passengers actually listen to the 3 minute brief - you'll be shocked by what you see! It's those who do listen to the safety brief who are best able to deal with an emergency!
Similarly when you check into a strange hotel, it's those who study the floor plan and fire exit locations before going to sleep who are most likely to survive a resulting fire!
It's not rocket science... both scenarios are potentially hostile and warrant a little forethought!
Similarly when you check into a strange hotel, it's those who study the floor plan and fire exit locations before going to sleep who are most likely to survive a resulting fire!
It's not rocket science... both scenarios are potentially hostile and warrant a little forethought!
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Originally Posted by parsi
If a 3min safety briefing is enough to teach you how to put on a life jacket, use emergency oxygen and open emergency doors then why do cabin crew have to spend sooo much longer learning that ?
Just heard on the radio, Ryan Air will be contacting the pax on the flight in question to appologise for any distress caused
Gentle tug!
Most safety briefings do show you how to "tug" on the mask!Most passengers take very little notice of the safety briefing,perhaps they could do it before leaving the gate and have some passenger participation!