Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug
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Finbarr seems a tad biased to say that "Ryanair have a clear Irish voice" when I have been on many flights where the cabin announcements were almost unintelligible, and would almost certainly be incomprehensible to speakers whose first language was not English. Many of them (cabin crew) today appear to be from Eastern Europe.
There was a pilot not so long ago who sounded more like Speedy Gonzalez than Gay Byrne.
There was a pilot not so long ago who sounded more like Speedy Gonzalez than Gay Byrne.
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People that are not adequately drilled in how to react in an emergency will panic, forget what they have been told, act inappropriately and then try to rationalise their behaviour afterward. Blaming the airline for perceived failures is part of this and is made easier by media nasties looking for a headline.
For an infrequent passenger the safety briefing is likely to be forgotten when they panic, regardless of how much attention they pay to it. Please note that I'm not suggesting it should be ignored but unless an airline is prepared to drill passengers in safety procedure (not going to happen) you'll always get the panic and the blame storm and the bad press that follows.
For an infrequent passenger the safety briefing is likely to be forgotten when they panic, regardless of how much attention they pay to it. Please note that I'm not suggesting it should be ignored but unless an airline is prepared to drill passengers in safety procedure (not going to happen) you'll always get the panic and the blame storm and the bad press that follows.
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Moderators - could we please start another thread entitled "Let's bash Pen Hadow"? - then the rest of us could get on with discussing the supposed topic of this thread, instead of focusing on one individual.
@wangja - thanks for posting the cartoon - very apt! :-)
@wangja - thanks for posting the cartoon - very apt! :-)
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Hello Ladies(?) and Gents
First of all im not a pilot i read the various posts (daily) only out of interest. I have the utmost respect in the way you chaps do your job. Yes, im irish (*duck* from the Paddy jokes) and have never flown with Ryanair (i´ll let you decide if thats actually positive or negative
. What does frustrate me is the way the media report this type of incident. There seems to be nearly always a rather large degree of sensationalism in the flavour of various reports.
Plunged, fell, dropped, near death or words to that effect are extremely missleading for normal mortals like me and tend to influence a flying experience in a negative way. Surely the journalists who "troll" this forum for whatever reason, should know by now that its sop to get down asap (controlled) and reframe from such use of the language? Bloody very misleading.
Just my 2 euros worth (live in frankfurt and i´m obliged to pay in euros otherwise i´d have used pennys).
Anyway keep the excellent work up ladies(?) and gents.
All the Best
irishffm
almost forgot.... hats off to the Ryanair crew.
ps flying yet again to Dublin on Sunday morning from FRA
First of all im not a pilot i read the various posts (daily) only out of interest. I have the utmost respect in the way you chaps do your job. Yes, im irish (*duck* from the Paddy jokes) and have never flown with Ryanair (i´ll let you decide if thats actually positive or negative
. What does frustrate me is the way the media report this type of incident. There seems to be nearly always a rather large degree of sensationalism in the flavour of various reports. Plunged, fell, dropped, near death or words to that effect are extremely missleading for normal mortals like me and tend to influence a flying experience in a negative way. Surely the journalists who "troll" this forum for whatever reason, should know by now that its sop to get down asap (controlled) and reframe from such use of the language? Bloody very misleading.
Just my 2 euros worth (live in frankfurt and i´m obliged to pay in euros otherwise i´d have used pennys).
Anyway keep the excellent work up ladies(?) and gents.
All the Best
irishffm
almost forgot.... hats off to the Ryanair crew.
ps flying yet again to Dublin on Sunday morning from FRA
Last edited by irishffm; 27th Aug 2008 at 02:48.
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Welcome irishffm.
You must be very rich there in Frankfurt, in fact you will find thar the Euro to which they are obliging you, is divided in 100 cents of value comparable to pennys and commonly used by Europeans to indicate small values
You must be very rich there in Frankfurt, in fact you will find thar the Euro to which they are obliging you, is divided in 100 cents of value comparable to pennys and commonly used by Europeans to indicate small values
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Change tone of briefing
Perhaps all airlines should review how they present the safety briefing. Out should go "You are very nice passengers that pay our wages and would you please, pretty please, listen to our safety briefing...." and bring in " You must listen to this briefing, put your newspapers down, NOW, take F
notice, NOW, this will help you in the event of an emergency... I SAID F Listen! "
or something similar.
It pisses me off, as a regular passenger, that so many people do not take any notice because of "been there, done that" syndrome. It is not only their safety that they are compromising but potentially mine as well!
notice, NOW, this will help you in the event of an emergency... I SAID F Listen! "or something similar.
It pisses me off, as a regular passenger, that so many people do not take any notice because of "been there, done that" syndrome. It is not only their safety that they are compromising but potentially mine as well!
I guess that, for various reasons, the lay public (including the press) do not realise that the aircraft has to descend rapidly following loss of pressurisation, and that, when such events occur, the emergency descent is considered a further abnormality. I recall being irritated a few weeks ago, when listening to the radio report of the Quantas incident, by the comment "the plane plumetted rapidly" or similar, as if that was a surprise!
Perhaps another 12 seconds in the briefing, to suggest that the aircraft will carry out an emergency descent following the deployment of the masks, might be a useful addition, though (as has been pointed out already) most pax take stuff all notice of the briefing anyway. If I had my way, I'd brief at the stand and kick off all those who failed to pay attention!!
Perhaps another 12 seconds in the briefing, to suggest that the aircraft will carry out an emergency descent following the deployment of the masks, might be a useful addition, though (as has been pointed out already) most pax take stuff all notice of the briefing anyway. If I had my way, I'd brief at the stand and kick off all those who failed to pay attention!!
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I am getting a little tired of this "most pax take no notice of the briefing" stuff.
As has already been pointed out, the reason for this is that we have heard it so many times before we could probably do the demonstration ourselves. In my own case, I have seen it done 19 times in the last month alone. Apologies for my low boredom threshold!
That does not mean I do not take notice of where the emergency exits are - and, in the extremely rare occurrence of getting a seat in the exit row - how to open the door. I even find out where the life jackets are, despite the probability of surviving to use one being very very close to zero.
And if the briefing had mentioned the emergency descent, I would have known about it.....as it was I probably spent the first 15 of my 20 years regular flying experience before this piece of information was imparted to me, via the press (yes, it does have its uses despite its sensationalism).
As has already been pointed out, the reason for this is that we have heard it so many times before we could probably do the demonstration ourselves. In my own case, I have seen it done 19 times in the last month alone. Apologies for my low boredom threshold!
That does not mean I do not take notice of where the emergency exits are - and, in the extremely rare occurrence of getting a seat in the exit row - how to open the door. I even find out where the life jackets are, despite the probability of surviving to use one being very very close to zero.
And if the briefing had mentioned the emergency descent, I would have known about it.....as it was I probably spent the first 15 of my 20 years regular flying experience before this piece of information was imparted to me, via the press (yes, it does have its uses despite its sensationalism).
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"And to suggest that inattention to the safety briefing is the problem, doesn't stand up to much rational analysis, it seems to me."
That sounds like EXACTLY the problem to me. In these days of instant answers and technology, it must come as a surprise to some people, that they might actually have to think and do things for themselves for a change. Maybe if the cabin crew walked around with breathing systems on all the time, they wouldnt have to waste time saving themselves, before worrying about all the people safely sat down underneath serviceable oxygen masks. Perish the thought that anybody should pay attention to a safety briefing. They might not be able to sue anybody afterwards ( ie; the bloke in the next seat for not listening and telling them what to do, his dog - for distracting him from said task by being ill and him worrying about it- or the pilots - for flying the plane instead of blathering and interrupting the peace and quiet in the cabin).
Ooops! Was that a bit of a rant!
That sounds like EXACTLY the problem to me. In these days of instant answers and technology, it must come as a surprise to some people, that they might actually have to think and do things for themselves for a change. Maybe if the cabin crew walked around with breathing systems on all the time, they wouldnt have to waste time saving themselves, before worrying about all the people safely sat down underneath serviceable oxygen masks. Perish the thought that anybody should pay attention to a safety briefing. They might not be able to sue anybody afterwards ( ie; the bloke in the next seat for not listening and telling them what to do, his dog - for distracting him from said task by being ill and him worrying about it- or the pilots - for flying the plane instead of blathering and interrupting the peace and quiet in the cabin).
Ooops! Was that a bit of a rant!
I am getting a little tired of this "most pax take no notice of the briefing" stuff
It could probably go hand in hand with a similar drive in the cockpit:-
Capt: "this will be a Grice 3 C departure..."
F/O: "Yawn...yeah yeah, I heard that one yesterday, and last week."
Capt: "ah, ok I'll not bother briefing the take off then."
I'm sure the pax would be delighted to hear that.....
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It pisses me off, as a regular passenger, that so many people do not take any notice because of "been there, done that" syndrome. It is not only their safety that they are compromising but potentially mine as well!
Do you not remember something after you've heard it one hundred plus times?
Well, I've been on about 450 flights over the last 5 years.
I always listen to the brief and I always read the card - because the door operation is different on the A320, B737, BAe 146/RJ85 and CRJ100/200 used by the airline I normally fly with. As well as the occasional turboprop.
It is commonsense, not to mention courteous to the cabin crew. Those who insist on reading or yakking to one another during the brief should 'STFU' and listen - or be advised that they are compromising their own safety and that of others.
Perhaps the Commander should make a PA telling passengers that they shall listen to the brief; failure to do so would constitute failure to follow a lawful order......
Has there been any indication of the cause of the rapid decompression suffered by the Ryanair aircraft yet? I would have thought that something so serious would have had a pretty obvious cause.
I always listen to the brief and I always read the card - because the door operation is different on the A320, B737, BAe 146/RJ85 and CRJ100/200 used by the airline I normally fly with. As well as the occasional turboprop.
It is commonsense, not to mention courteous to the cabin crew. Those who insist on reading or yakking to one another during the brief should 'STFU' and listen - or be advised that they are compromising their own safety and that of others.
Perhaps the Commander should make a PA telling passengers that they shall listen to the brief; failure to do so would constitute failure to follow a lawful order......
Has there been any indication of the cause of the rapid decompression suffered by the Ryanair aircraft yet? I would have thought that something so serious would have had a pretty obvious cause.
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Just having read The Sun's page 13 this morning. Oh dear Ms Haywood. The oxygen masks failed to inflate.... Well no **** Sherlock! I'd be bloody worried if they did.
Have you ever listened to a safety demo Ms Haywood? Nar, thought not.
Have you ever listened to a safety demo Ms Haywood? Nar, thought not.
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Overthewing, what more do you want? Your own personal flight attendant and one also for each of your fellow passengers? The safety briefing is there to be listened to. If someone is so naive or arrogant to think that they don't need to then I'd prefer they flew on another plane as they will be the ones to panic - as per Hadow - when something unexpected happens. There is also the Safety Instruction leaflet for reading and not for fanning ones' face when it gets a tad hot.
Further gems from Hadowland were that 'it was totally unexpected'. Gosh...tell me Number One, is it time for the scheduled cabin depressurisation? No, Captain, that's scheduled for 10 minutes time'
Second gem...he put his sons' mask on first. Now what do they say in the briefing?
I think that the Ryanair team did an excellent job. I also found the Matt cartoon in todays' Telegraph in poor taste.
Further gems from Hadowland were that 'it was totally unexpected'. Gosh...tell me Number One, is it time for the scheduled cabin depressurisation? No, Captain, that's scheduled for 10 minutes time'
Second gem...he put his sons' mask on first. Now what do they say in the briefing?
I think that the Ryanair team did an excellent job. I also found the Matt cartoon in todays' Telegraph in poor taste.
From 'How To Do Well In The Sim':
<<RAPID DEPRESSURISATION
When you call ‘MAYDAY’, if you can get some sort of ATC clearance before you plummet, so much the better. It would be pointless doing the drill perfectly and then slamming into another aircraft beneath you on the way down. The TCAS telling you ‘CLIMB . . . CLIMB’ won’t be much use at this point. The question is: ‘how long do I spend trying to get an emergency descent clearance?’ And of course no-one can give you an answer – you must use your judgement as to when to start down if ATC can’t help. However, remember you’ve got 12 minutes of passenger and cabin crew oxygen available and considerably more for the pilots. If you stay aloft a short time while you get a clearance and then descent at current IAS (in case of damage) you’ll still have plenty of time to get down to breathable air before the oxygen runs out.
One of the difficulties in this scenario is communication with cabin crew – they can’t talk to you with their masks on, so it’s one way traffic only. Having done the QRH checklist you could do a combined PA for both the cabin crew and the pax, along the lines of: ‘ . . . we’ve lost cabin pressure, so everyone make sure you’ve got your oxygen masks on . . . cabin crew stand by for further instructions . . . ‘. At the end of the descent your PA could be ‘ . . . cabin manager, take off your mask and report to the flight deck . . .’ Or if for some reason you need to talk to the cabin manager during the descent, you could tell him on the PA to don a portable bottle and report to the flight deck. He can then listen to what you say over the speaker.
One final point - if during the cruise one pilot is leaving the flight deck it is a good idea to review the rapid depressurisation QRH procedure beforehand, because the remaining pilot will be unmonitored if he has to carry it out. Some pilots like to leave the QRH open at the relevant page as a back-up in this situation.>>
<<RAPID DEPRESSURISATION
When you call ‘MAYDAY’, if you can get some sort of ATC clearance before you plummet, so much the better. It would be pointless doing the drill perfectly and then slamming into another aircraft beneath you on the way down. The TCAS telling you ‘CLIMB . . . CLIMB’ won’t be much use at this point. The question is: ‘how long do I spend trying to get an emergency descent clearance?’ And of course no-one can give you an answer – you must use your judgement as to when to start down if ATC can’t help. However, remember you’ve got 12 minutes of passenger and cabin crew oxygen available and considerably more for the pilots. If you stay aloft a short time while you get a clearance and then descent at current IAS (in case of damage) you’ll still have plenty of time to get down to breathable air before the oxygen runs out.
One of the difficulties in this scenario is communication with cabin crew – they can’t talk to you with their masks on, so it’s one way traffic only. Having done the QRH checklist you could do a combined PA for both the cabin crew and the pax, along the lines of: ‘ . . . we’ve lost cabin pressure, so everyone make sure you’ve got your oxygen masks on . . . cabin crew stand by for further instructions . . . ‘. At the end of the descent your PA could be ‘ . . . cabin manager, take off your mask and report to the flight deck . . .’ Or if for some reason you need to talk to the cabin manager during the descent, you could tell him on the PA to don a portable bottle and report to the flight deck. He can then listen to what you say over the speaker.
One final point - if during the cruise one pilot is leaving the flight deck it is a good idea to review the rapid depressurisation QRH procedure beforehand, because the remaining pilot will be unmonitored if he has to carry it out. Some pilots like to leave the QRH open at the relevant page as a back-up in this situation.>>
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Let be realistic, you are never going to get all pax to listen to the announcements and they certainly won't read the card - many of them probably couldn't. However that doesn't mean that we shouldn't improve them.
two things I have learnt from this episode that I never knew before despite listening to many many briefings and travelling on probably 20 airlines and RAF and USN aircraft
1) you can pass out after only 12s. Sure I have heard and understood the message that parents should put on masks before helping children but knowing that timescale made it a lot clearer to me. Indeed when I went home I emphasised the message to wifey. I think that should be added to briefing
2) The fact that it is not obvious that oxygen is coming through. Someone earlier suggests a small mechanical device to indicate that it is working. This could alleviate much panic (highly desirable)
To be fair to pen hadow he did point out that on some of the issues he wasn't sure that there wasn't something of which he was not aware but it was a woeful performance by the Today programme for not checking their facts
Encouraging that despite all these problems there was not any dangerous display of panic (AFAIK), just fear.
two things I have learnt from this episode that I never knew before despite listening to many many briefings and travelling on probably 20 airlines and RAF and USN aircraft
1) you can pass out after only 12s. Sure I have heard and understood the message that parents should put on masks before helping children but knowing that timescale made it a lot clearer to me. Indeed when I went home I emphasised the message to wifey. I think that should be added to briefing
2) The fact that it is not obvious that oxygen is coming through. Someone earlier suggests a small mechanical device to indicate that it is working. This could alleviate much panic (highly desirable)
To be fair to pen hadow he did point out that on some of the issues he wasn't sure that there wasn't something of which he was not aware but it was a woeful performance by the Today programme for not checking their facts
Encouraging that despite all these problems there was not any dangerous display of panic (AFAIK), just fear.
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Checklists are for checking?
er....bit confused by mention of checklists...aren't they a list of things you have to check? i.e. something to be actioned rather than passively absorbed? Or does this word have a different meaning in aviation?
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Marchin61 -
Every aircraft has checklists, in order to ensure everything that needs to be done is done, in the correct sequence. There are 'normal' checklists, such as before take-off, before landing, etc.
There are also 'non-normal' checklists, self explanatory. Of these non-normal checklists, some have so-called 'memory' or 'recall' items which have to be learned and performed from memory, later backed up by reading the checklist, to ensure everything has been done correctly. Needless to say, the 'Emergency Descent' falls into this latter category and it appears that this crew perfomed in text-book fashion.
Every aircraft has checklists, in order to ensure everything that needs to be done is done, in the correct sequence. There are 'normal' checklists, such as before take-off, before landing, etc.
There are also 'non-normal' checklists, self explanatory. Of these non-normal checklists, some have so-called 'memory' or 'recall' items which have to be learned and performed from memory, later backed up by reading the checklist, to ensure everything has been done correctly. Needless to say, the 'Emergency Descent' falls into this latter category and it appears that this crew perfomed in text-book fashion.
Last edited by Finbarr; 27th Aug 2008 at 08:46. Reason: typos
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The mention of checklists is to bring home the point that although some things have to be repeated, repeated and repeated again, they are still important. The "I've heard this before" argument does not wash.