Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug
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On the subject of rapid descend, the reason why it is like that, is to get down to breathable air asap, regardless whether the masks are working or not. The oxygen usually lasts 12-15 mins, so we need to get on the ground asap. It's procedure.
On the subject of an automated PA during a decompression, the airline I work for, on the 737, we do have that PA system on board. It also has a recorded announcement for ditching and emergency landing. It is loud, very loud and very clear. It tells pax what's happening and what to do. I may be presumptious, but I would think other airlines have this system as well, but I may be wrong.
Gg
On the subject of an automated PA during a decompression, the airline I work for, on the 737, we do have that PA system on board. It also has a recorded announcement for ditching and emergency landing. It is loud, very loud and very clear. It tells pax what's happening and what to do. I may be presumptious, but I would think other airlines have this system as well, but I may be wrong.
Gg
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As slipandturn said: "an emergency occurred, and we don't yet know how or why".
The rest is an issue of emergency management and, in this passenger's experience, Ryanair are not good at that.
The rest is an issue of emergency management and, in this passenger's experience, Ryanair are not good at that.
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excellent job to the crew!
Great to heare that there was just a long haul hiker on the jet and no mindless members of the fourth esate or thespians present.
Great to heare that there was just a long haul hiker on the jet and no mindless members of the fourth esate or thespians present.
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These passengers that you so easily slag off pay your wages, lets not forget that.
The incident looks like it was handled exactly by the book, good job.
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Mercenery pilot;;
I guess the fact the the actual incident occurred in the first instance, which gave the pax opportunity to complain would be more damaging to the airlines image, would'nt you agree?
What caused the depress is what's important here imho.
I guess the fact the the actual incident occurred in the first instance, which gave the pax opportunity to complain would be more damaging to the airlines image, would'nt you agree?
What caused the depress is what's important here imho.
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It occurs to me, and I have not seen it mentioned so far, to ask, immediately after a sudden depressurisation, in what state are people's ears? Are they capable of hearing an announcement? And would a partially understood or misunderstood PA actually increase the chance of panic compared with no announcement? Leaving the PA until everything has levelled out seems sensible to me.
A warning about the rapid descent should be given in the safety briefing, however.
A warning about the rapid descent should be given in the safety briefing, however.
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From the sounds of things the crew did a very professional job in extremely taxing circumstances.
After a fair many years as cabin crew I believe the realities of emergencies tend to be glossed over by the airline industry and pax in turn encouraged by the promises of a nice shiny plane and a couple of litres of Johhnie Walker's finest don't dwell on the 'what if's'.
Intrestingly research shows that airline pesonnel, those in the military and emergency services are statistically more likely to survive disaster because their training gives them an alternative survival 'script'. (Bypassing the disbelief and deliberation phase that holds other back.)
If a passenger knows that there is a flow indicator that turns green when 02 is flowing; that there is a way of manually dropping the masks; that crew do not make announcements during the emergency decent then panic subsides and already an alternative 'script' is emerging.
However I don't belive the airlines will be advertising the more detailed emergency prodecures any time soon nor would many pax take any heed if they did. Denial, the "It won't happen to me" factor is far more seductive a mindset than the "yes it could and what would I do"
In my view its up to the individual to take responsibility and be as prepared as possible. Stop complaining, do some research, watch the briefing, and improve your chances.
After a fair many years as cabin crew I believe the realities of emergencies tend to be glossed over by the airline industry and pax in turn encouraged by the promises of a nice shiny plane and a couple of litres of Johhnie Walker's finest don't dwell on the 'what if's'.
Intrestingly research shows that airline pesonnel, those in the military and emergency services are statistically more likely to survive disaster because their training gives them an alternative survival 'script'. (Bypassing the disbelief and deliberation phase that holds other back.)
If a passenger knows that there is a flow indicator that turns green when 02 is flowing; that there is a way of manually dropping the masks; that crew do not make announcements during the emergency decent then panic subsides and already an alternative 'script' is emerging.
However I don't belive the airlines will be advertising the more detailed emergency prodecures any time soon nor would many pax take any heed if they did. Denial, the "It won't happen to me" factor is far more seductive a mindset than the "yes it could and what would I do"
In my view its up to the individual to take responsibility and be as prepared as possible. Stop complaining, do some research, watch the briefing, and improve your chances.
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ryanair depressurisation
I have posted this before with the Qantas incident, but I believe it is more relevant now.
Cabin crew should include in their safety briefing something like: "should cabin depressurise, oxy masks will drop and the pilots will immediately carry out a steep controlled descent to an altitude where air is more breathable. No need to panic as it is part of the pilots' training and regularly practiced by them.
I was never a happy passenger, but now that I have a son flying for an airline, one or two conversations with him have put my mind at rest.
People fear the unknown and the unexpected.
Cabin crew should include in their safety briefing something like: "should cabin depressurise, oxy masks will drop and the pilots will immediately carry out a steep controlled descent to an altitude where air is more breathable. No need to panic as it is part of the pilots' training and regularly practiced by them.
I was never a happy passenger, but now that I have a son flying for an airline, one or two conversations with him have put my mind at rest.
People fear the unknown and the unexpected.
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I guess the fact the the actual incident occurred in the first instance, which gave the pax opportunity to complain would be more damaging to the airlines image, would'nt you agree?
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I have just been watching the news reports. As everybody has stated on this forum. Had people listened to the safety brief they would have known about the lack of inflation.
Mr Hadow... You are not an expert in this field. The pilots were busy doing their job.... I am sure it was scary for you and the other pax, but at least you are around to winge about it!
I wish the press would stop using the word 'plummet'
Sorry I realise everybody has said the same things above.. Just needed to rant.
Mr Hadow... You are not an expert in this field. The pilots were busy doing their job.... I am sure it was scary for you and the other pax, but at least you are around to winge about it!
I wish the press would stop using the word 'plummet'
Sorry I realise everybody has said the same things above.. Just needed to rant.
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Ryanair descent
Anyone who thinks that emergency depressuriation is a piece of cake needs to look at
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_501410.pdf
There is scarcely a higher workload on any flight crew, including the cabin crew than an emergency depressurisation. If pilots start an unannounced emergency descent they are going to cause havock for airliners in all directions travelling below them. So they have to get out a pan call or even a mayday if they need to get the controllers undivided attention (often no mean feat at the best of times), and they have to do that while donning their flight crew masks and at the same time trying to see if there is an immediate fix for the cabin pressure. When they can get clearance they can start their descent. If not they can try to escape sideways into safer airspace for a rapid descent. But their first job is to try to prevent a potential crisis from becoming a major calamity. They must follow the age old lesson that every pilot is taught, aviate, navigate, communicate. the BBC and the media should note the accepted position of the need to communicate.
The cabin staff equally have a very high workload; they have to get their hands on an oxygen mask immediately; they must rush to make the cabin as safe as possible bearing in mind that they may be serving from trolleys (can you imagine hundreds of soft drinks cans and bottles climbing from 8,000 feet to 39,000,000 feet in a few seconds?), and then secure the galley to prevent calamities there.
For both the flight deck crew and the cabin crew this cannot be any time for PA announcements.
The above link stresses the urgent need to see to yourself for oxygen before helping others. One anoxious person helping another does not work.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_501410.pdf
There is scarcely a higher workload on any flight crew, including the cabin crew than an emergency depressurisation. If pilots start an unannounced emergency descent they are going to cause havock for airliners in all directions travelling below them. So they have to get out a pan call or even a mayday if they need to get the controllers undivided attention (often no mean feat at the best of times), and they have to do that while donning their flight crew masks and at the same time trying to see if there is an immediate fix for the cabin pressure. When they can get clearance they can start their descent. If not they can try to escape sideways into safer airspace for a rapid descent. But their first job is to try to prevent a potential crisis from becoming a major calamity. They must follow the age old lesson that every pilot is taught, aviate, navigate, communicate. the BBC and the media should note the accepted position of the need to communicate.
The cabin staff equally have a very high workload; they have to get their hands on an oxygen mask immediately; they must rush to make the cabin as safe as possible bearing in mind that they may be serving from trolleys (can you imagine hundreds of soft drinks cans and bottles climbing from 8,000 feet to 39,000,000 feet in a few seconds?), and then secure the galley to prevent calamities there.
For both the flight deck crew and the cabin crew this cannot be any time for PA announcements.
The above link stresses the urgent need to see to yourself for oxygen before helping others. One anoxious person helping another does not work.
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Those accusing posters on this thread of being rude to "passengers that you so easily slag off [who] pay your wages" should remember that it is sometimes fellow pax (SLF) who comment negatively on those who make ill-informed/ludicrous/stupid comments, NOT the airline industry professionals (f/c, c/c, etc).
S.
S.
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I'm the poster child for being a 'safe' passenger; I always pay attention to the briefing; I read the laminated card front and back; I count the number of seat backs between me and the nearest exit (and next nearest exit, just in case); I make sure I have a scarf or item of clothing to cover my nose in case of thick smoke; I wear my seat-belt at all times when seated. Short of travelling the whole journey in the brace position, I'm not sure there's much more I could do to increase my survival chances.
Despite all that, I'm far from sure how I would cope in the event of oxygen masks dropping down, etc., because I've never had the opportunity to physically DO any of the things being demonstrated in the safety briefing. I have no idea how close to me the mask would drop, and how hard a 'tug' is required. In the event of landing on water, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't remember how to do the thing with the straps and the pull-cord. I doubt if I could open an emergency door, because I don't know how much pressure is required or whether things should 'click' or engage or whatever.
It's very hard to do something where you have no muscle memory, no experience of the movements required or the sensations experienced.
Even a single run-through would transform awareness and performance. Yet when does a passenger ever get the chance to even touch an oxygen mask or a life-jacket? Why aren't there classes to give us some experience of, say, opening an emergency door?
Trying to work out how to do all these things is not much helped by being in a state of panic and fear.
I wonder how many of us coped perfectly the first time we drove a car that skidded on black ice? Did we smoothly and calmly recall the 'steer-into-the-skid' instructions that we had been told (theoretically)? I bet most of us panicked and slammed on the brakes. We'd handle it better the second, third, tenth time.
Airline passengers have never had the opportunity to rehearse in the way that air-crew have.
Despite all that, I'm far from sure how I would cope in the event of oxygen masks dropping down, etc., because I've never had the opportunity to physically DO any of the things being demonstrated in the safety briefing. I have no idea how close to me the mask would drop, and how hard a 'tug' is required. In the event of landing on water, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't remember how to do the thing with the straps and the pull-cord. I doubt if I could open an emergency door, because I don't know how much pressure is required or whether things should 'click' or engage or whatever.
It's very hard to do something where you have no muscle memory, no experience of the movements required or the sensations experienced.
Even a single run-through would transform awareness and performance. Yet when does a passenger ever get the chance to even touch an oxygen mask or a life-jacket? Why aren't there classes to give us some experience of, say, opening an emergency door?
Trying to work out how to do all these things is not much helped by being in a state of panic and fear.
I wonder how many of us coped perfectly the first time we drove a car that skidded on black ice? Did we smoothly and calmly recall the 'steer-into-the-skid' instructions that we had been told (theoretically)? I bet most of us panicked and slammed on the brakes. We'd handle it better the second, third, tenth time.
Airline passengers have never had the opportunity to rehearse in the way that air-crew have.
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merc,
Right, things break, technology fails ect, and yes these incidents do occurr, people do die, get injured and or sick, fact!
So why does the industry try to cover such instances up, and people quote do you know how damaging this could be?
If your saying that people should be more responsible about paying attention to the safety demos and cards, then one would think media coverage of the air accidents would be a good thing, it will heighten public awareness of the real risks and things breaking, in order that they can act accordingly or in line with what crews expect of their passengers??
At the end of the day, crews are highly trained for these situations, passengers are NOT!!, for both I imagine a scary experience and am pleased that no one has died! again...
Right, things break, technology fails ect, and yes these incidents do occurr, people do die, get injured and or sick, fact!
So why does the industry try to cover such instances up, and people quote do you know how damaging this could be?
If your saying that people should be more responsible about paying attention to the safety demos and cards, then one would think media coverage of the air accidents would be a good thing, it will heighten public awareness of the real risks and things breaking, in order that they can act accordingly or in line with what crews expect of their passengers??
At the end of the day, crews are highly trained for these situations, passengers are NOT!!, for both I imagine a scary experience and am pleased that no one has died! again...
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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So I have read the theory, in this and other threads, and wondered what do deployed oxygen masks look like.
A quick search & a few clicks later
cords clearly visible.
A quick search & a few clicks later
cords clearly visible.
If your saying that people should be more responsible about paying attention to the safety demos and cards, then one would think media coverage of the air accidents would be a good thing, it will heighten public awareness of the real risks and things breaking, in order that they can act accordingly or in line with what crews expect of their passengers??
Anything mechanical can fail. Many a/c systems are duplicated and even triplicated. Flying is a bit "risky" just as travelling by car, boat or train carries risks. But the fact is that modern air travel is outstandingly safe. It's the over dramatisation of events such as this by the media and the "vox pox" interviews and/or comments by so-called "experts" which can make passengers fearful. Very rarely, if ever, do the media concentrate on the facts.
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Quote from Pen Hadow
"It was unfortunate that, for whatever reasons, the flight crew were not able to talk to any of us," he told BBC News.
"We really didn't see them during the main situation at all. They didn't say anything, they weren't visible. We have not heard a squeak.
They weren't visible Pen?
Surely the commander had a leisurely stroll through the cabin, to ensure the Thinking Mans Explorer was comfortable and calm in his oxygen mask?
Is this guy for real?
"We have been through a genuine life-threatening emergency. The runway had fire engines all the way down the line, this was a full-on situation."
Groan... A full on situation no less...
Don't eat the yellow snow Pen...
MOL had this to say...
"Passengers sometimes misunderstand and expect there's going to be a surge of oxygen, when in actual fact there's simply a steady stream of oxygen," he said.
"I've been in one of these myself. The oxygen masks were working, the correct safety procedures were followed."
Passengers also complained that the flight crew failed to tell them immediately why the aircraft was descending so quickly.
Mr O' Leary said passengers had not been told immediately why the aircraft was descending so quickly because safety had been the crew's priority.
"We have to require that the pilots and the cabin crew deploy their oxygen masks and they can't be making PA announcements while they have their oxygen masks on," he said.
"As the passengers confirmed the pilot did make an announcement once he got down to 8,000ft, when it's safe to take oxygen masks off."
I know if I'm sat with the orange mask on my face, I want the flightcrew to be getting the A/C to a safe level without undue delay, not having a natter with the punters.
I'm sure had they crew left the aircraft at FL350 or whatever and some passengers had evetually died from oxygen starvation, their familes would be quick to sue for criminal negligence, citing the crew had not followed their emergency procedures...
You can't win...
Well done to the all the crew onboard
Atreyu
"It was unfortunate that, for whatever reasons, the flight crew were not able to talk to any of us," he told BBC News.
"We really didn't see them during the main situation at all. They didn't say anything, they weren't visible. We have not heard a squeak.
They weren't visible Pen?
Surely the commander had a leisurely stroll through the cabin, to ensure the Thinking Mans Explorer was comfortable and calm in his oxygen mask?Is this guy for real?
"We have been through a genuine life-threatening emergency. The runway had fire engines all the way down the line, this was a full-on situation."
Groan...
A full on situation no less...Don't eat the yellow snow Pen...
MOL had this to say...
"Passengers sometimes misunderstand and expect there's going to be a surge of oxygen, when in actual fact there's simply a steady stream of oxygen," he said.
"I've been in one of these myself. The oxygen masks were working, the correct safety procedures were followed."
Passengers also complained that the flight crew failed to tell them immediately why the aircraft was descending so quickly.
Mr O' Leary said passengers had not been told immediately why the aircraft was descending so quickly because safety had been the crew's priority.
"We have to require that the pilots and the cabin crew deploy their oxygen masks and they can't be making PA announcements while they have their oxygen masks on," he said.
"As the passengers confirmed the pilot did make an announcement once he got down to 8,000ft, when it's safe to take oxygen masks off."
I know if I'm sat with the orange mask on my face, I want the flightcrew to be getting the A/C to a safe level without undue delay, not having a natter with the punters.
I'm sure had they crew left the aircraft at FL350 or whatever and some passengers had evetually died from oxygen starvation, their familes would be quick to sue for criminal negligence, citing the crew had not followed their emergency procedures...
You can't win...
Well done to the all the crew onboard
Atreyu
That this incident has provoked such a reaction in the chattering classes demonstrates that aviation reached the stage a long time ago where passengers expect and demand a totally sensation-less experience on all flights, and protest vociferously on the very rare occasions when this is not achieved. This is a tribute to the present state of the game. Those who shout loudest are, one suspects, the same ones who think the briefings and safety card are for the benefit of lesser mortals...
I would have hoped, however, that someone of the reputed calibre and daring of Ben Hadow would have been made of sterner stuff, as the majority of well-heeled passengers were in the earlier days of aviation. Waking to his interview this morning, I was disappointed. Frankly, don't think I'd want to be up the swanny with him...
There's been discussion here re the timing of the first announcement. D O Guerro argues that bottom-of-descent may be too early; Baron rouge that this is the best time to do it, because the passengers are in need of the overdue reassurance. I agree with the baron, but there is more to it than that.
The bottom-of-descent PA is chiefly to enable the flight crew to re-establish communication with the cabin crew. Wherever the senior cabin-crew member happens to be situated (he/she might be clinging to a mask in mid-cabin), the PA should be audible. In my airline (I'm now retired), the PA goes something like this:
"The descent is now complete. Will the senior cabin crew member report to the flight deck."
This PA is designed speedily to achieve a number of objectives:
a) to inform ALL cabin crew that they no longer need oxygen and can resume duties in the cabin;
b) to bring the senior cabin-crew member to the cockpit for consultation and briefing;
c) to provide immediate reassurance to the cabin crew, and any passengers who may be listening, that the situation is under control.
Although it is technically possible for either pilot to make a PA during the descent, there is far too high a workload to justify it. The emergency descent is a fairly demanding manoeuvre, which can easily be mishandled and is practised only once a year or so in the simulator; ATC must be informed; and it is vital to establish whether the safety altitude permits descent to 10,000ft or below. [A bit further down the route, they would have been approaching the Pyrenees.]
I am not going to comment on what may have been done (or not done) to reassure the passengers during the diversion to Limoges: we simply don't have the facts yet. But one thing is for sure: workload would have been fairly high for all the crew.
I would have hoped, however, that someone of the reputed calibre and daring of Ben Hadow would have been made of sterner stuff, as the majority of well-heeled passengers were in the earlier days of aviation. Waking to his interview this morning, I was disappointed. Frankly, don't think I'd want to be up the swanny with him...
There's been discussion here re the timing of the first announcement. D O Guerro argues that bottom-of-descent may be too early; Baron rouge that this is the best time to do it, because the passengers are in need of the overdue reassurance. I agree with the baron, but there is more to it than that.
The bottom-of-descent PA is chiefly to enable the flight crew to re-establish communication with the cabin crew. Wherever the senior cabin-crew member happens to be situated (he/she might be clinging to a mask in mid-cabin), the PA should be audible. In my airline (I'm now retired), the PA goes something like this:
"The descent is now complete. Will the senior cabin crew member report to the flight deck."
This PA is designed speedily to achieve a number of objectives:
a) to inform ALL cabin crew that they no longer need oxygen and can resume duties in the cabin;
b) to bring the senior cabin-crew member to the cockpit for consultation and briefing;
c) to provide immediate reassurance to the cabin crew, and any passengers who may be listening, that the situation is under control.
Although it is technically possible for either pilot to make a PA during the descent, there is far too high a workload to justify it. The emergency descent is a fairly demanding manoeuvre, which can easily be mishandled and is practised only once a year or so in the simulator; ATC must be informed; and it is vital to establish whether the safety altitude permits descent to 10,000ft or below. [A bit further down the route, they would have been approaching the Pyrenees.]
I am not going to comment on what may have been done (or not done) to reassure the passengers during the diversion to Limoges: we simply don't have the facts yet. But one thing is for sure: workload would have been fairly high for all the crew.
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Dear Pen Hadow...without any shadow of doubt do I personally want you sat next to me whilst I try and initiate an emergency descent, complete the recall items pull out the QRH for the non normals and supplementaries and miss all the other bits of aluminium tube on the way down!! So glad I dont have to go camping with this chap and employ HIS survival techniques! Well done to the crew...hope everyone is ok now.
Jack's Granddad
Forgive this extremely naive question from a bloke who only flies as a passenger a couple of times a year but should this situation happen to me, once the mask has dropped and I have put it on and pulled the tube, just how would I know it was working properly and O2 was coming through? Would I feel a draught of cold 'air' or something? Or would there be a smell and/or taste?
I would imagine that even if it was practical to make some sort of announcement during the rapid decent a significant number of passengers would be so scared that they would not take it in. I would therefore agree with the suggestions that a rapid descent is very likely under these circumstances with no announcement at the time should be mentioned in the safety briefing.
I would imagine that even if it was practical to make some sort of announcement during the rapid decent a significant number of passengers would be so scared that they would not take it in. I would therefore agree with the suggestions that a rapid descent is very likely under these circumstances with no announcement at the time should be mentioned in the safety briefing.