Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug
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Putting aside your careful analysis for a moment - you are failing to consider the implications of a cabin that is only partially occupied e.g. 180 capacity, 60 pax. Having oxygen flow to every mask is jeopardising supply(not infinite), and to a lesser extent, pressure.
Your consideration apply to bottle supply which is no longer in use on airliners.
About eardrum perforation, the most probable cause of it, would be a fast descent in the very last 5000ft .
To avoid that problem you should not have more than 500 ft/mn in the final descent to land and as there was apparently no other damage to the aircraft, they had plenty of time to land.
About making a PA with the mask on, MOL is right, it is a bit tricky and that's why you can only make your PA below 12000 ft, once you have discarded the oxygen mask.
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Is there any word on which aircraft this was?
Having used FR a number of times from BRS this year it is noticeable that not many people appear to pay attention to the safety announcement - and although the crew do demonstrate 'tugging' on an oxygen mask I don't recall specific verbal instructions to do so.
Last year on VS, the safety announcement was stopped and re-started from the beginning when one pax stood up and was evidently not paying attention and I've seen EZY do similar.
Having used FR a number of times from BRS this year it is noticeable that not many people appear to pay attention to the safety announcement - and although the crew do demonstrate 'tugging' on an oxygen mask I don't recall specific verbal instructions to do so.
Last year on VS, the safety announcement was stopped and re-started from the beginning when one pax stood up and was evidently not paying attention and I've seen EZY do similar.
Irrespective of all of the pontificating here, the recent series of accidents will do nothing for the confidence of potential pax, at a time when the quality of service provided by many airlines has dropped below that which most deem reasonably acceptable.
"Cattle class" is the now buzzphrase , and don't it ring true !!
"Cattle class" is the now buzzphrase , and don't it ring true !!
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Procedure : emergency decent x 3 over the PA. Get the A/C down to 10000´
or MSA. Evaluate situation, oxygen mask´s off, communicate with the No. 1 a...n..d then make an anouncement. What´s this bussiness about talking to the pax on what´s going on in the middle of an ´rapid decompression´. The ear popping´is normal in a decompression ie. severe ear and sinus pain, feeling cold, chest and joint pain caused by nitrogen bubbles in the blood expanding, forced expelation of air. As someone mentioned if, you as a pax paid more attention to the saftey briefings then you might be more aware of what´s going on in this type of situation!
The cause of this particular incident well...as usual, wait for the report. Needless to say a very uncomfortable situation for all involved. But, by the looks of it, a well execute procedure!
or MSA. Evaluate situation, oxygen mask´s off, communicate with the No. 1 a...n..d then make an anouncement. What´s this bussiness about talking to the pax on what´s going on in the middle of an ´rapid decompression´. The ear popping´is normal in a decompression ie. severe ear and sinus pain, feeling cold, chest and joint pain caused by nitrogen bubbles in the blood expanding, forced expelation of air. As someone mentioned if, you as a pax paid more attention to the saftey briefings then you might be more aware of what´s going on in this type of situation!
The cause of this particular incident well...as usual, wait for the report. Needless to say a very uncomfortable situation for all involved. But, by the looks of it, a well execute procedure!
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Facts and informed opinion
Like many I am very frustrated at the drivel that gets posted on this forum of late - sic the Spanair thread.
Seems like waiting until 1200 today for MOL's next bulletin will be more informative. Here's what Ryanair themselves say - seems nicely factual and to the point - though I bet they know what component failure cuased the depressurisation.
Ryanair.com - Notice : Ryanair Aircraft diverts to Limoges 25 Aug- Updated 08.30hrs
Seems like waiting until 1200 today for MOL's next bulletin will be more informative. Here's what Ryanair themselves say - seems nicely factual and to the point - though I bet they know what component failure cuased the depressurisation.
Ryanair.com - Notice : Ryanair Aircraft diverts to Limoges 25 Aug- Updated 08.30hrs
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Passengers
I try not to post here because I have no flying qualifications whatsoever. I do understand a bit about how people learn things. The safety briefing has absolutely no context for a passenger. "In the event of cabin depressurisation" is a completely meaningless phrase to most passengers.
So we are told how to respond to something we don't understand.
The idea that a short talk at the start of a flight would lead to perfect compliance in the event of an incident which makes ordinary people fear for their lives is simply wrong.
There is much talk here of passengers not displaying common sense in an 'emergency' - see the Munich Fire thread nearby - but frankly, if you think that a short talk and a look at the safety card means people will understand how to behave in an incredibly stressful situation, then, politely, you are not displaying common sense.
The challenge is to manage the passengers inevitable lack of understanding.
So we are told how to respond to something we don't understand.
The idea that a short talk at the start of a flight would lead to perfect compliance in the event of an incident which makes ordinary people fear for their lives is simply wrong.
There is much talk here of passengers not displaying common sense in an 'emergency' - see the Munich Fire thread nearby - but frankly, if you think that a short talk and a look at the safety card means people will understand how to behave in an incredibly stressful situation, then, politely, you are not displaying common sense.
The challenge is to manage the passengers inevitable lack of understanding.
- The masks were ill-maintained and dusty; pax mistaking the french chalk used to pack the masks to avoid chafing, which clouds the cabin on deployment.
- The oxy supply didn't work; pax expecting the bag to inflate under normal usage, whereas it only inflates under abnormal usage.
- The flow was inadequate; in fact the limited flow is quite adequate, it's not air you are breathing, it's oxygen, so much less is needed.
- Oxy not there straight away; you do have to pull it, as explaned in every pre-flight safety briefing I have ever heard.
and that there was no PA explaining anything until after the a/c got to 8000'
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I had only one depressurisation in my 40 year career and that was not sudden, merely a gradual loss (air supply valve or something like that).
Unknown to me, I had a senior (non-flying) member of management on board. A few days later, I received a call (with a follow-up letter) from my line manager that was of a very unusual nature. I had apparently got a pat on the back from the senior passenger "for the reassuring way" I had handled things. Normally a call from my boss was to the effect that (again) I had upset some young stewardess by being "too abrupt".
Unfortunately, I never kept that "green" letter as it would have framed and been given pride of place in the downstairs loo.....
Jack
Unknown to me, I had a senior (non-flying) member of management on board. A few days later, I received a call (with a follow-up letter) from my line manager that was of a very unusual nature. I had apparently got a pat on the back from the senior passenger "for the reassuring way" I had handled things. Normally a call from my boss was to the effect that (again) I had upset some young stewardess by being "too abrupt".
Unfortunately, I never kept that "green" letter as it would have framed and been given pride of place in the downstairs loo.....
Jack
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This is an incident that happens to all airlines and all makes of aircraft from time to time. We're in the silly season for news plus recent sad events have brought all aircraft incidents to the notice of the news depts.
The oxygen activation system is a generic standard. By al means question this and I would agree about the dangers of tugging too hard V not at all. The briefing Ryanair give is approved by the relevant authorities. The trouble is that nowadays SLF have become very complacent about flying and the dangers however remote. Sell it like its a bus and the public treat it like one.....
As for the PIC and talking to the punters......enough said. 23.30 getting into a small regional airport...Limoges etc etc. priorities dear chap.....This isn't like the BA 747 incident where the engines stopped.....and then the Captain had a chat....
The oxygen activation system is a generic standard. By al means question this and I would agree about the dangers of tugging too hard V not at all. The briefing Ryanair give is approved by the relevant authorities. The trouble is that nowadays SLF have become very complacent about flying and the dangers however remote. Sell it like its a bus and the public treat it like one.....
As for the PIC and talking to the punters......enough said. 23.30 getting into a small regional airport...Limoges etc etc. priorities dear chap.....This isn't like the BA 747 incident where the engines stopped.....and then the Captain had a chat....
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Congratulations to the crew! A procedure well practised through out the Airline Industry, and executed correctly. No one was hurt physically, or financially, but because it was Ryanair the media have to try and find something wrong with the crew actions. We all know the the untrained eye it is a scary experience, maybe the Airline Industry should include in the safety announcement " in the event of a sudden lose of pressure, your mask's will drop and an emergency descent will begin ".
FR Crew I take my hat off to you!
FR Crew I take my hat off to you!
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re:
I would be more interested to know what would cause a depressurisation?
The cabin air is supplied by the engines, if they stop, the air stops - but not normally with a 'bang' as ram air helps maintain the pressure and it trickles away slowly. Failure of a single engine, would require the aircraft to descend to a slightly lower level as the system would not be capable of supplying the normal pressure.
The more common cause of such an event is 'structural failure' - however, read between the lines here. I don't necessarily mean the fuselage ripping in two, but more a failure of a valve, seal, door, hatch, or a failure of one of the pressure bulkheads (which are hidden behind panels at the very front and rear of the passenger cabin).
It is interesting to note, Pen Hadow, who appears to be some sort of expert on the matter - had taken it upon himself to notfy his fellow passengers that his O2 mask bag had not inflated. I am quite sure the Ryanair demo makes a point of saying the bags do not inflate, as they don't, for this very reason. The demo at my own airline makes this point clear.
The next time you listen to my welcome PA, and I mention that you are required to pay the demo your full attention - please, please do so. Its for your own safety, and the safety of those around you
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Jet Plunges..... 
Which has NOTHING to do with this incident
Next time put your paper down and listen to what the cabin crew tell you during the safety brief, 
moron!
Last Wednesday 154 people died in Spain's worst aviation accident in 25 years when a jet crashed off the runway at a Madrid airport moments after takeoff.
"Mine wasn't filling up with oxygen and neither was my son's. He was hyperventilating. I looked at the lady on my left and hers hadn't filled up either."
moron!
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BBC Reporting
From SLF:
I've just sent the following text to BBC Radio 4 regarding the reporting of the incident yesterday:
I wish to protest strongly about the quality of the "interview" of a Ryanair representative by Ed Stourton this morning (26.8.08). Stourton seemed to be unable to grasp that when an aircraft experiences a loss of pressure, the crew immediately don theiry supplementary oxygen masks and are therefore unable to make a PA announcement until the aircraft has descended below 10,000'. This is why information on use of oxygen masks is made before take-off. Maybe Stourton should have sought out some passengers and asked them why they didn't pay attention to the briefing.
As for citing an arctic explorer - how does this qualify him to have a special ability to comment ?
The Ryanair crew behaved in a most professional manner in making a rapid controlled descent (note: the aircraft did not "plummet" as the BBC is fond of saying) and as for Ed Stourton - take him out of the program until he learns something about unbiased interviewing
I've just sent the following text to BBC Radio 4 regarding the reporting of the incident yesterday:
I wish to protest strongly about the quality of the "interview" of a Ryanair representative by Ed Stourton this morning (26.8.08). Stourton seemed to be unable to grasp that when an aircraft experiences a loss of pressure, the crew immediately don theiry supplementary oxygen masks and are therefore unable to make a PA announcement until the aircraft has descended below 10,000'. This is why information on use of oxygen masks is made before take-off. Maybe Stourton should have sought out some passengers and asked them why they didn't pay attention to the briefing.
As for citing an arctic explorer - how does this qualify him to have a special ability to comment ?
The Ryanair crew behaved in a most professional manner in making a rapid controlled descent (note: the aircraft did not "plummet" as the BBC is fond of saying) and as for Ed Stourton - take him out of the program until he learns something about unbiased interviewing
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How do you know if your mask has 'filled up' with O2? Plonkers!
And can someone tell us why the cracked windscreen/emergency decent of a BMI aircraft two days ago has not made the press?
Maybe it has something to do with the more vocal passengers on RYR.
And can someone tell us why the cracked windscreen/emergency decent of a BMI aircraft two days ago has not made the press?
Maybe it has something to do with the more vocal passengers on RYR.
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The fact is that a large number of pax don't listen to safety briefings. Even when they do listen, many don't really think through their options if something were to go wrong - eg where's my nearest door, how easily can I get there etc etc... So we have to deal with that.
That said, the fact of the matter is that the aircraft got on the ground safely with no casualties. I'm sure that were I in the situation as a passenger I would love a hug and a cup of tea but the fact of the matter is that the overriding priority of the flight crew is to maintain the safety of the aircraft. Who knows what they may have been having to deal with on the flightdeck... but they still managed to make an announcement on levelling off, which is the point at which I would have thought it appropriate.
I find it very hard to believe that the oxygen wasn't working. If memory serves a rapid decompression at 35,000' (guestimated alt) gives a TUC of 20secs and a slow decompression 45secs. Given that the pax weren't complaining of having become unconscious and dying during the incident, I'm guessing the oxygen was working.
On another point, the Today programme really is going rapidly downhill. Had a Daily Mail Journo stepped in for Ed for a couple of minutes? I don't say this often - but I couldn't agree more with MOL's comments.
That said, the fact of the matter is that the aircraft got on the ground safely with no casualties. I'm sure that were I in the situation as a passenger I would love a hug and a cup of tea but the fact of the matter is that the overriding priority of the flight crew is to maintain the safety of the aircraft. Who knows what they may have been having to deal with on the flightdeck... but they still managed to make an announcement on levelling off, which is the point at which I would have thought it appropriate.
I find it very hard to believe that the oxygen wasn't working. If memory serves a rapid decompression at 35,000' (guestimated alt) gives a TUC of 20secs and a slow decompression 45secs. Given that the pax weren't complaining of having become unconscious and dying during the incident, I'm guessing the oxygen was working.
On another point, the Today programme really is going rapidly downhill. Had a Daily Mail Journo stepped in for Ed for a couple of minutes? I don't say this often - but I couldn't agree more with MOL's comments.
Last edited by D O Guerrero; 26th Aug 2008 at 12:26.
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How do you know if your mask has 'filled up' with O2? Plonkers!
SoS
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This is a constant complaint when the oxy masks are deployed. Among other issues that come up repeatedly :
- The masks were ill-maintained and dusty; pax mistaking the french chalk used to pack the masks to avoid chafing, which clouds the cabin on deployment.
- The oxy supply didn't work; pax expecting the bag to inflate under normal usage, whereas it only inflates under abnormal usage.
- The flow was inadequate; in fact the limited flow is quite adequate, it's not air you are breathing, it's oxygen, so much less is needed.
- Oxy not there straight away; you do have to pull it, as explaned in every pre-flight safety briefing I have ever heard.
I take the point about listening to the safety briefing. As a slightly nervous passenger, I've listened to the briefing on every flight I've ever been on. As I understand it, if the cabin loses pressure oxygen masks will fall, you pull one towards you and put it on. If you have to help someone, put yours on first. Don't worry that the bag has not inflated, this doesn't mean oxygen is not flowing.
However, perhaps there is a valid point being made here that has occurred to me occasionally before. I have no idea how to tell if the oxygen actually is flowing short of not passing out. The warning about the bag suggests to me that people have been known to pull them too hard trying to get the bag to inflate - ie I understand they are warning me not to pull it too hard because I might break my oxygen supply. Rather than just telling people that the bag doesn't have to inflate if they've pulled the mask hard enough, wouldn't it make sense to tell people how to know that they have pulled it hard enough. Would you feel a flow of "air" from the mask, for instance.
Listening to the guy on the radio this morning (Today programme) I wanted to know what made him sure the oxygen wasn't flowing - wouldn't he have lost consciousness if it hadn't been? - he didn't say that happened.
Apologies for anything in the above that is the product of my ignorance and for intruding in your forum. I enjoy reading this site - it is one of the things that has made me a much less anxious passenger.
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I've also raised this with BBC News. Just because someone is a polar explorer does not make them an expert on what should be done.
Paramount is safety, which means "don masks, get the plane down to a safe FL, then talk the passengers through what just happened".
As for "there was NO warning, it just happened" - Well matey, that's what's called an emergency.
And I do agree with what others said - If you'd listened to the safety briefing, you would know that the bag does not inflate, but that the oxygen does flow if you pulled "the mask sharply to your face" as so many briefings clearly point out.
BBC News just published an article that explains some of this:
BBC NEWS | UK | What to do when planes lose pressure
S.
Paramount is safety, which means "don masks, get the plane down to a safe FL, then talk the passengers through what just happened".
As for "there was NO warning, it just happened" - Well matey, that's what's called an emergency.
And I do agree with what others said - If you'd listened to the safety briefing, you would know that the bag does not inflate, but that the oxygen does flow if you pulled "the mask sharply to your face" as so many briefings clearly point out.
BBC News just published an article that explains some of this:
BBC NEWS | UK | What to do when planes lose pressure
S.
Last edited by VAFFPAX; 26th Aug 2008 at 12:35.