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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

Old 25th Aug 2008, 06:33
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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

According to Full SAS-fight i cockpit : Dagsavisen, every fifth SAS pilot (160 out of 800) says that they are bullied by colleagues.

Only 4 out of 10 have reported the problem, and less than half of those who did feels they are taken seriously. 8 out of 10 say that reporting the problem didn't lead to improvements.

Luftfartstilsynet (Civil Aviation Authority in Norway) says in a secret report that this is mostly due to conflicts between young and older pilots. The source of the conflict is apparently from the increase in retirement age from 60 to 65 by ICAO in march 2006. It has caused many young pilots to declare themselves non fit for fight and refuse to fly with their elder colleagues just before departure. Weak economy and heavy competition has done nothing to improve the situation, and the pilots got a message just before the weekend that 110 pilots would have to loose their jobs.

The report is five months old and an inspection leader at Luftfartstilsynet says that nothing has improved since then, which is causing concerns about security in the company.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 08:44
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I make no pretence at adding to the quality of this debate: I merely state "Bloody diddums! Welcome to the real world."
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 08:47
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Summer tabloid stuff?. We are seeing lots of informative terrorism over here these days.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 09:18
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Well I think it's the younger pilots fault. If they weren't sitting there in the right hand seat, hogging the positions of even younger people who've just paid a fortune to obtain a pilot's licence, then these even younger people would get a fair go.

All these young F/Os should lead by example, and show how altruistic they can be by resigning, just to give those further down the ladder a leg up.

I've said on other posts on this topic, I've worked bloody hard to get where I am and I'm not giving it up just because some selfish snot-nose kid thinks s/he deserves the position more than I do.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 09:30
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Ah yes, but are you sure it's the younger pilots complaining about being bullied?

I thought it was mainly the older "seat-hogging" pilots who were whining about being "bullied" by the younger ones wanting their command...

In which case this is about leadership culture, and captains being unable to assert their role... and I would have to say "If you can't stand the heat, retire from the kitchen..."

(BTW, I'm very much for retirement age 65, no problem with it, AS LONG AS YOU STILL CUT THE MUSTARD..)
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 09:36
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Just some facts.

Retirement age by union agreement is 60 with full pension.

There are no young pilots in SAS average age in cockpit is 53
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 09:37
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I thought good old CRM was supposed to cure this sort of thing...
Whatever happened to teaching by example and learning from experience?
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 10:31
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There are no young pilots in SAS average age in cockpit is 53
Company wide ?

WOW !!!
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 10:47
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What every young pilot fails to see that they, one day sooner or later; become an old captain. That is when they face the same attitude from the new young pilots. That's life, learn to live with it.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 10:49
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To quote more from the original article:

Some of the methodes used is social lockouts, verbal onesided quarrels, younger pilots declaring "non fit for flight" and refusing to fly with elder colleagues, signs with degrading texts in crewrooms, and degrading text on internal pilot bulletin boards (I assume they didn't mean this one? ).

I'm not sure who is on the "receiving" end of the bullying, it wasn't entirely clear in the article. Maybe both sides are.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 11:06
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I understand most "younger" pilots are unhappy, because the older ones continue flying instead of enjoying their CWA agreed retirement age. At the same time I understand there will be lay-offs, so is it maybe the younger ones being the first to go?
Now if the older ones would retire, no lay-offs are needed (?). Ah well. Playing it on the person is no matter what not the way to go.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 11:59
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ray cosmic

"their CWA agreed retirement age."

The majority of pilots will go at their agreed age, they have long planned for it. A few will stay on and are unlikely to effect the promotion of FOs as there are, in any airline, people who leave before their time is up.

Not sure who produced that bit about, "every fifth SAS pilot (160 out of 800) says that they are bullied by colleagues". But it does come across as a bit of union orchestrated bull****. Remember that the most active part of any pilots union in this day and age is the Senior FO/FO sector, these are people who came into aviation as a viable financial option but not as a love or a vocation and now want out as soon as possible on the highest pension going.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 12:06
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"every fifth SAS pilot (160 out of 800) says that they are bullied by colleagues" comes from a survey.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 12:45
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The majority of pilots will go at their agreed age, they have long planned for it.
We thought that too, at Fedex.

The reality is, 75% of pilots have continued on past 60.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 13:15
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"every fifth SAS pilot (160 out of 800) says that they are bullied by colleagues" comes from a survey.

And any survey can be manipulated, depending on who runs it, need to know a lot more about such a survey before it becomes believable.

"The reality is, 75% of pilots have continued on past 60." and given the way pension funds have been swallowed up I'm not surprised, though I don't imagine that is the case at FedEx? I would have thought that continued expansion would have well outnumbered any one extending beyond age sixty?
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 13:23
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How about this...?

As each senior Captain approaches age sixty, he is retired, and the senior First Officers move up in turn (to enable more junior pilots to be retained)...and each senior First Officer (now a Captain) as well as the more junior pilots (now retained) provide an additional financial assessment, to then be forwarded monthly, to those now retired senior pilots....so they can afford to stay retired...and not muck up the program (as perceived by the junior pilots).

IE: the check is in the mail.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 14:01
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Fedex has been contracting the fleet slightly in the last year or so.

Combined with the replacement of 3-man aircraft (727, DC10) with 2-man aircraft (757, MD10) and the change to the regulatory age, we are not too far away from furloughing, if the winter "peak" isn't a big one.

Our pension fund is strong. But the green-eyed monster has gripped many in the senior ranks. I have flown with many a captain who could walk out with a six-figure yearly pension who are staying on - "With my sick leave and vacation, it's the best part-time job in the world!"

Let me shuck this one down to the cob: there is a group of pilots in the world who will get five more years of flying as captain. Those who came before didn't get it. Those that come after won't get it (they get five more years of waiting for the PIC job). The trains may still run down the tracks, but don't expect alot of holding hands and singing "Kumbaya".....
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 15:04
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Let get things right:

The article (and similar in other news outlets in Scandinavia) refers to relations within SAS Norway (formerly Braatens SAFE) and is not company wide.

MJ
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 16:59
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They probably don't like to 'retire' early as there is little else to do in Norway.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 21:08
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HOT DOG, you f... idiot !

You just don't get it, do you ?!

Live to work or work to live....Your choice.

I've have already made mine, and so have the rest of the SAS pilots. Enjoy at least a little of your life, without working.
Now, unfortunately, some selfish clowns sees the possiblity of making a little extra money since they have no other life anyway, and thus changing the careerpath of everyone else below them senioritywise.
All because a nonsense EU law suddenly makes it possible, in the holy name of age discremination. What a complete joke.
It has ALWAYS been agreed on (union/company) that you leave when you are 60. That's it. GET OUT !

Good old EU....The average angle of a cucumber, age discremination - I wonder what's next for them ?!

Sk900
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