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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

Old 25th Aug 2008, 20:08
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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'BYALPHAINDIA', you have no idea what you're talking about. If you are bored in Norway, then just don't go there. Quite simple. Admittedly, Norwegian tv is by far the most boring I've ever seen - but this does not imply that its inhabitants are the same. And: who's watching tv anyway...?

Another thing has crossed my mind though. What if the whole thing is made up by the management of SAS and has no truth in it whatsoever? Just think about it: older pilots are usually higher up the seniority ladder and have higher salaries. So if they can get rid of some of them, SAS saves money, right? Wouldn't surprise me at all...
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 20:27
  #22 (permalink)  
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Having industrial agreements that force people to retire at a given age is so out dated.

For once I agree with part of EU legislation, forcing people to retire at a given age is ageist!!

It is tantamount to not giving somebody a job because they are too old, which can not be used as a valid reason. This is not PC bull, but a sound ethos.

OK so FOs will have to wait a bit longer for their commands but they will in turn get longer careers themselves.

SK900, I am afraid that you are the outdated idiot round here.

It has ALWAYS been agreed on (union/company) that you leave when you are 60. That's it. GET OUT !
That is such old fashioned, almost communist, militant rubbish!
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 21:13
  #23 (permalink)  
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Ironic considering Norway is not actually an EU member state but is fact an EEA EFTA member.

Norway and the European Union (Delegation site)

Through the EEA-Agreement Norway and the other EEA EFTA States have taken on the obligation to implement all EU legislation relevant to the functioning of the internal market. The EEA Committee takes the decision on whether new Community legislation is of EEA-relevance, with joint participation by the EU Commission and the EEA EFTA Member States. Thereafter, it is up to the national parliaments and legislators to ensure the national implementation. The EEA Agreement also ensures the EEA EFTA States some access to the preparatory work on new EU legislation on expert level (when prepared by the Commission).
It's the best compromise, the chance to pick and choose which bits of EU regulation are appropriate to be implemented in Norway
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 21:37
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Both full pension and full salary

I have to agree with 411A.

Also:
Most of these captains work in Sweden and they get both pension and salary for 5 years, at the same time as the company is planning to kick 110 FO:s out on the street. The "waiting 5 years longer for upgrade" is just a tiny inconvinience compared.

Also the collective agreement will come under pressure from the company because of many not retiring at 60. In the future this will mean that the now young pilots will have no possibility of retirement at 60 and that it will take 5 years longer to earn a full pension.

Todays captains have a choice and by choosing to stay on after 60 they deny their younger colleagues the same choice when they turn 60.

fmgc wrote:
"OK so FOs will have to wait a bit longer for their commands but they will in turn get longer careers themselves."
They donīt want longer careers (from about 25 to 60 i enough), they want to keep their jobs.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 23:44
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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How about this...?
As each senior Captain approaches age sixty, he is retired, and the senior First Officers move up in turn (to enable more junior pilots to be retained)...and each senior First Officer (now a Captain) as well as the more junior pilots (now retained) provide an additional financial assessment, to then be forwarded monthly, to those now retired senior pilots....so they can afford to stay retired...and not muck up the program (as perceived by the junior pilots).

IE: the check is in the mail.
I like this suggestion, but how about another.........SAS should employ darkies ( like my goodself ), brownies, yellowies from the third world and see how far the bullying will get to.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 01:18
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Quote
'BYALPHAINDIA', you have no idea what you're talking about. If you are bored in Norway, then just don't go there. Quite simple. Admittedly, Norwegian tv is by far the most boring I've ever seen - but this does not imply that its inhabitants are the same. And: who's watching tv anyway...?

Reply
okay, Ill remember that.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 02:05
  #27 (permalink)  
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SK900, what a great first post. I think most people here have made up their mind who the f... idiot is.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 05:15
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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I thought the redundancies announced the other week were mainly voluntary, anyone shed some light on this. Read that 18 aircraft were being removed total redundancies 2500 but spread across the group?

last time this happened Wideroe were under obligation to take on pilots made redundant from SK, but the business relationship was different. Could WF help out this time or are they well and truly part of the group now and so cannot help?

Last edited by nigegilb; 26th Aug 2008 at 08:19.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 05:41
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Surely if a pilot aged 60 plus can perform the tasks required under international regulations then they should be allowed to do so.

In those circumstances the younger pilots have nothing legitimately to complain about.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 07:12
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Manrow you missed the point completely, now go back to your rocking chair on the porch. Oh I forgot, before you do, have a look at post # 26 pretty much sums it up. I would just like to add for your clarification that the 60+ captains are taking home a six figure salary in pound sterling + a six figure pension, whilst the "young F/O" in his forties with close to 10 years in the company gets the boot, I`m sure he`s not dependent on his five figure salary to make ends meet.
Enjoy your tea and biscuits.

Fjordviking.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 07:32
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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fjordviking,

as suggested from my rocking chair I have read post 26, and appreciate the points made. But where were you all when this agreement was reached? Was it merely imposed by management or EU regs for that matter?
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 07:37
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Such a sensitive issue. Before my tuppen'th, I'd like to point out that I am not involved.

I am of the opinion that when the 60+s started they knew that they were going to retire at 55-60 and their pensions reflect that. In effect they signed a time limited contract expiring on their 60th birthday.

SAS allowed them to continue after their 60th when the legal requirement to retire was dropped but only on condition of route network, full-time etc.

Then they sue the company for age discrimination because they were only allowed to work full-time and are awarded compensation as if all the days they would have been off were bought (double time?) by the company. I wonder how many actually did apply for part time.

Bearing in mind that they are on salaries the likes of which we will probably never see again, it would be very easy to suggest that it is pure greed and ego which drives them.

I make no judgement either way.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 07:39
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Gentlemen,

Appels and appels please!

I do understand that my American friends see a need to continue beyond age 60. I probably would to if I had seen my pension plan being raped my criminal management backed by a corrupt goverment, but such is not the case at SAS!
A SAS CAP, having served 30 yrs. can leave with a pension in the neighbourhood of 150K $, variing a bit depending on wich Scandinavian country Your plan is set up in.
Some of the pioners in the +60 game managed to get 150K pension + 200K pay for several years, when that got stopped they sued the company still wanting their pension payments!
Now a majority continues past 60 with different excuses but never men enough to state the real reason: I do not give a S... about my colleages and I want more money for ME ME ME ME!
Here we have a group fortunate enough to have been with SAS during the golden Years, working 400h/year, protected by one of the best unions and now they see fit to turn around and shaft everybody else including the union that protected their lifestyle all these year, all in the name of ME ME ME ME!
Those induviduals sees this vindow of oppertunity as their right, because EU made legislation to secure a stable workforce and less strain on national pension systems, funny thing though our pension is almost 100% selffunded, this law was never ment for us!
Long term implications are even worse, SAS will now push for 65 as mandatory retirement age, lessening their pension bill by 30% at least and I will have to work my behind of till 65. Thank You no!

Now get out of my seat and go home and enjoy life!

Regards
Heavydane
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 07:45
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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First of all this discussion does not belong in this forum if we are talking SAS specific - its an internal matter between SAS pilot unions and SAS management.

Secondly there is absolutely nothing wrong in continuing piloting A/C for as long as legislation permits (even as a CDR) if you want to, not if you have to.... As a wise man once said "It's to late before you know it".

And by the way norwegian CAA denied yesterday that they have any concerns regarding flightsafety in SAS Norway.

It seems that KLM and Lufthansa have no problems in retirering their CDR's early - shame on them....
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 08:11
  #35 (permalink)  
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I can't believe what I am hearing here, you can not force people to retire early.

It is AGEIST!

It is as bad as racism or sexism!

Unfortunately there will be some that are upset as there is a transition to the increased retirement age.

In the UK and I guess most of Europe the rules have been changed and all the younger pilots have taken it on the chin as it is better for the "Greater Good". Why are you different in SAS Norway to the rest of the world?
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 08:12
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Manrow:
The old captains have enjoyed the benefits of the collective agreement. In that agreement it states that the employment is automatically terminated when the pilot reaches 60 years of age (it isnīt a surprise for them). I find it immoral that they now decide to disregard that point in the agreement just to make more money, even when it will cause younger colleagues to lose their job.

It might be according to the law but it certainly isnīt morally right.

Read post #34 and #35 again.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 08:23
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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fmgc:
"Upset" hardly describes the feeling when you lose your job because someone wonīt follow the collective agreement and retire at 60 and instead continues with both pension and salary at your cost!!!

If the airlines were expanding it wouldnīt be a problem but now it is.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 08:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Ladusvala,

after reading your explanations I understand the situation much better, and am inclined to agree with you.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 08:35
  #39 (permalink)  
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It all depends on how you view your job. If you are itching to retire at 55 or 60 to be able to "enjoy" life, aviation was probably the wrong choice for you. I retired at age 65, not because of the money but because aviation for me, was not a job but a vocation. I have seen this argument many times before and I know many of my ex colleauges who were very much against extended retirement age. They are now fighting to stay on till age 65.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 08:41
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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SK900 - what a classic example of a foot stomping, i;m going to hold my breath until I get what I want, immature tantrum more commonly exibited by 2 year olds in a supermarket. Its simply breathtaking. If my kids acted that way I would tan their backsides.

Its astonishing to see see the behavior of (some) generation x's, my generation. Perhaps you would prefer all the old farts in our community to actually die, stops them stealing oxygen that is so rightfullly the deserve of younger folk.

Be happy with the fact that you are IN a jet, I've been in genaral aviation for 19 years and 3,000 hrs of flogging around in all sorts of crap senecas, chieftains, barons etc and I'm yet to crack my first jet job. These upstart young blokes who go straight from flight school to jet FO just dont know how tough it is for the rest of.

How dare anyone bitch and moan about someone else not retiring so they can further their own careers. It's a discusting and vile attitude that sems to have pervaded the modern world.
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