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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

Old 6th Sep 2008, 17:32
  #81 (permalink)  
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Hey don't worry my career with be 5 years longer as a benefit? True, but isn't that the old Nelson Mandela situation?...spend a lifetime in prison but when you finally get out, you're president!! Don't worry be happy.

Perhaps we should then lobby to change the law to 70 when it's my time to go at 65. Yes, yes, that would be perfect....
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Old 6th Sep 2008, 18:10
  #82 (permalink)  
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If you were a captain the day the rule changed, you got five more years as a captain.

Everybody else got five more years where they sit.

Combined with the time value of money, and the decreased life expectancy of flying long-haul until 65, it is quite a costly change.

All this was discussed for years on this site and elsewhere. No need to rehash it now. Just don't whizz on my leg and tell me it's raining.
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Old 6th Sep 2008, 18:53
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I work for a company where the retirement age has been progressively increased over the years. Everyone has benefitted, even me.

Forgive me, I don't know what all the whining is about?
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Old 6th Sep 2008, 19:48
  #84 (permalink)  
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SortieIII, do you mean that, in your company, pilots over 60 years of age have been paid both salary and pension, while "young" first officers with minimum 10 years in the right hand seat has been laid off?
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Old 7th Sep 2008, 03:32
  #85 (permalink)  
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I think you are referring to this:

22 § Vid uppsägning på grund av arbetsbrist skall arbetsgivaren iaktta följande turordningsregler.
Innan turordningen fastställs får en arbetsgivare med högst tio arbetstagare oavsett antalet turordningskretsar undanta högst två arbetstagare som enligt arbetsgivarens bedömning är av särskild betydelse för den fortsatta verksamheten. Vid beräkningen av antalet arbetstagare hos arbetsgivaren bortses från arbetstagare som avses i 1 §. Den eller de arbetstagare som undantas har företräde till fortsatt anställning.
Har arbetsgivaren flera driftsenheter, fastställs en turordning för varje enhet för sig. Enbart den omständigheten att en arbetstagare har sin arbetsplats i sin bostad medför inte att den arbetsplatsen utgör en egen driftsenhet. Om arbetsgivaren är eller brukar vara bunden av kollektivavtal, fastställs en särskild turordning för varje avtalsområde. Finns det i ett sådant fall flera driftsenheter på samma ort, skall inom en arbetstagarorganisations avtalsområde fastställas en gemensam turordning för samtliga enheter på orten, om organisationen begär det senast vid förhandlingar enligt 29 §.
Turordningen för de arbetstagare som inte undantagits bestäms med utgångspunkt i varje arbetstagares sammanlagda anställningstid hos arbetsgivaren. Arbetstagare med längre anställningstid har företräde framför arbetstagare med kortare anställningstid. Vid lika anställningstid ger högre ålder företräde. Kan en arbetstagare endast efter omplacering beredas fortsatt arbete hos arbetsgivaren, gäller som förutsättning för företräde enligt turordningen att arbetstagaren har tillräckliga kvalifikationer för det fortsatta arbetet. Lag (2000:763).

However, you also have to read this:

2 § Om det i en annan lag eller i en förordning som har meddelats med stöd av en lag finns särskilda föreskrifter som avviker från denna lag, skall dessa föreskrifter gälla.
Ett avtal är ogiltigt i den mån det upphäver eller inskränker arbetstagarnas rättigheter enligt denna lag.
Genom ett kollektivavtal får det göras avvikelser från 5, 6, 22 och 25-27 §§.

And for those of you not conversant in Swedish:

Yes, there is a law saying that senority counts in times of redundancies. But this can be overruled by a collective agreement. The law is in Sweden called "dispositiv".

NB. I'm not an expert on this law. There might be other interpretations done in previous court cases. I guess this matter will end up in court as well. Time will tell.
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Old 7th Sep 2008, 10:43
  #86 (permalink)  
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Absolutely correct,

My reply was to someone who said that it was just a principle, not a law. However, as you say, in a collective agreement you can "disregard" this particular law. As SAS has done with their senioritylist. Ususally in sweden, (scandinavia?) all the collective agreements have some type of seniority list, which is used, among other things, to decide who will be let go in case of a downturn. Since the "list" is an agreement between the union and the company, they can negotiate this as they wish, more or less.

I just read that SAS and pf have agreed to let the "oldest" pilots go instead of the youngest, in case of a surplus of pilots.

Please, I have no opinion in this case, since I was layed off in 2002 from SAS and my career have since then not really suffered from it. Far from it. I am just interested to know if it is any thruth to what I read.

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