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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

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Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS

Old 26th Aug 2008, 08:42
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In germany the situation is a bit different. Union-company contracts are treated as law within the company and can supersede national laws. So if the union contract states that you can leave work between 55 and 60 with a company-wide average of 58 but certainly not later than reaching 60 you have to leave at that age. A couple captains tried in front of courts in view of the new EU legislation and lost, the agreement still stands and you can not work longer than 60 at lufthansa (btw, the only company over here that has that kind of agreement). There are other companies to take on those retirees and are happy to have them for another five years.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 09:07
  #42 (permalink)  

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Thumbs up Thank you, normorecatering

You summed up my reaction to that immature twit perfectly.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 09:27
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Cool An individuals rights

What an interesting and testy thread. All comments appear to negate one thing. An individuals right to work until they wish, regardless of EU rules or policy. All the young and hungry F/O'S have the choice to walk if they are not happy with that companies position (SAS). Similarly the Seniors have the right to work until THEY decide they want to retire. This is basic stuff. Specific to Spanair/SAS, my colleague, Captain 40 ish, tells me that he is actually fed up with the massive rostering at the company, 90 hours per month, no time for any other 'life'. He could not wait to move/retire from this organisation.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 09:57
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To be young or not to be...

normorecatering and others

You cannot compare these FOs with the likes at ryan or somewhere else where they go from flight school to self-funded 737-rating. These guys were picked as top notch in Scandinavia and are (in theory) the most well educated pilots we have up north. And as far as I know they havent recruited any new pilots since 2001, correct me if Im wrong? So this talk about young FOs is very misleading. In any other company the majority of these guys would have been captains many years ago.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 11:52
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Oh purlease, my god, what a load of drivel...........most higly educated, top notch, yada yada yada.....bah humbug. For gods sake, we're talking about bloody aeroplane drivers, not nobel prize winners who are finding cures for cancer or saving the world. Jeez some people need a reality check.

Last year, i attended a dinner at a conference in Melbourne with my GF who is a scientist, specialising in genetics and is completing a Phd. At the dinner, there were Nobel lauriets, you could say the cream of the worlds intelectual crop, but you would not know it by talking to them. Unasuming, genteel and most seemed to be embarressed about the accolades bestowed apon them. None the less, there was a quiet pride amonst them in what they do, but no boasting, no egos.

Me, a humble pilot felt privaliged to be merely in their presence.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 12:10
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Most satisfying to read all the selfish little control freaks fulminating.
Met them at school, RAF, airlines but much less so in shipyards and the Merchant Navy; perhaps because a smack in the chops often offends, a course of action not available to a British Officer or (usually) airline pilot.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 12:38
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Just because somebody has another source of wealth, be it pension or other, you can't expect them to be the first to go if there are redundancies! Life doesn't work that way.

In the UK if somebody was forced to retire at 60 they could take the Company to a tribunal and would win. The Company would then be forced to keep everybody on until they are 65 anyway.

I guess that it is similar in Norway, but I don't know.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 12:48
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nomorecatering

FYI Im not one of them. And surely there are different levels of experience/knowledge among pilots in different airlines. Its just plain facts that some airlines have a higher requirement when hiring people than others.
Anywho... Before this leads away from the thread, what I wanted to say was that you probably didnt understand that the youngsters are not so young and that they dont have 1501TT, trained in a private school with a privately funded 738 rating. So I disagree that these guys are whiny brats, but highly experienced and well trained pilots that in any other company would be commanders by now.

Peace out
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 13:33
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In the UK, we have had a raft of EC legislation overrule ALL national legislation
And frankly, its ridiculous.

Our politicians are just too ignorant to know what to and what not to concede...
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 13:58
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It's a discusting and vile attitude that sems to have pervaded the modern world.
The captains of today benefitted from the Age 60 rule their entire careers. Because of it, they were hired earlier, upgraded earlier, and flew widebodies earlier.

When the rule no longer suited them, they lobbied successfully to have it changed. Against the vote of the majority of my union, by the way.

You can revel in your gift from above, but spare me the moral argument. It's all whose oxe is being gored.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 14:00
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Well in keeping of the OP's subject there is no conflict between old and not so old pilots in SAS. Pers. opinions on when one should retire or not are discussed in closed forums and there is certainly no FLIGHT SAFETY issues.

The story is one of many started in scandinavia this summer hammering down on SAS and especially SAS pilots for wathever unknown reason - lack of real stories i guess.

The discussion in this forum wheter or not one should go home and mow the lawn are really not of interest to the parties involvede. It is a matter between employees/unions and management and are discussed in forums closed to the public.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 15:08
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Rainboe,
The law has changed
Unfortunately not enough. I was speaking to a friend who works for a well known London media company. She is obliged to terminate her employment for a month each year, presumably so that her employer can avoid their responsibilities to her as a permanent employee. That, together with pilots paying for their own type ratings, suggests that EU law and unions are still failing to look after employee welfare.
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 06:44
  #53 (permalink)  

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The mesage is not getting through.
Quite.

EC legislation overrules ALL UK national Law. You don't concede anything!
And how did we get to this position?

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Old 27th Aug 2008, 08:18
  #54 (permalink)  
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Listen to Rainboe, he is right.

I don't like most of the EU law, but in the UK we follow it.

Sometimes I wish we were more like our EU cousins and ignored the ones that don't suit us.

In this instance the law is good.
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 08:22
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I see open warfare on the horizon....!!
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 14:54
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Surely the only real point of disagreement here should be if the Capt's concerned are indeed taking a pension and a salary. In this case anyone being made redundant has ample cause for complaint if someone else is effectively on two incomes whilst his/hers is about to be terminated. The only justifiable option must be , if you wish and are fit to fly to the new limit of 65 great, enjoy this career most of us chose due to sheer love of aviation. . . but, hey you didn't retire so don't expect that pension to be paid until you do.
Years ago when 55yr old ex BA pilots went out and for 5 years took jobs the rest of us would have liked, whilst it was frustrating, you had to ackowledge that they were offering their services as experienced pilots in a free market ( even if their lesser " need " for money was inevitably depressing the renumeration for the rest of us) but at least they had done this in a free market. Taking a pension AND staying on resulting in a loss of job to your colleagues, Yeah that stinks, Pension or Salary, surely just one or the other here.
Oh, and the frustrated F/O's shouldn't be trying to lay the blame on the wrinklies if the company starts trying to negotiate 65 for everyone. Even if not 1 Capt asked to stay that extra 5 yrs you can be sure the company would come asking for it sooner rather than later. Do you really think they want to contribute financially to you enjoying your later life,unproductive, or they prefer you work till you drop? Think if you are being realistic you can answer that one easily enough
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 15:56
  #57 (permalink)  
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The nasty side of this: pilots who work longer die sooner - less years in retirement. The company gains on both ends.

Of course, no pilot believes this will happen to him/her. Only to the other guys.
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 17:25
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Catplaystation and Huck,

You are both right. SAS is economically up sh** creek as are many airlines. Everyone doing their dam***** every day to save every penny possible! But these colleagues; they had a contract stipulating 60 years retirement age! They are on both pension and salary! And some are now sueing the company for a lot of money, because in their "over 60" new contract it was agreed that "over 60 flying" means 100% duty time!! And now they want part time flying! So that they can work on off-days...which at SAS pays a pretty handsome amount of money to put it mildly! Don't say I'm speculating! This we see every day!
Right now,rumours are, that there are 110 pilots about to be laid off...5 years ago 350 were kicked out..not one has been asked to come back!
So they are not the most popular dudes around!
I have no problem with the EU law! I've realised that it is the reality, and I'd better learn to live with it, or I'll end up a bitter idiot!
So ok with me! And as far as I know, there are absolutely no problems in the cockpit either! The Norwegian CAA is saying, that they noticed some problems in an audit..but now have absolute trust in the safety environment in SAS cockpit's. I think we have some newspapers up in Norway, that were short of good stories to stir the pot over the summer!

Rgds,MDD
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Old 28th Aug 2008, 17:17
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I never thought I would see a thread where so many people seem to be in agreement with 411A.
Now, what does this mean

Let`s keep the retirement age at 60 maximum where we can!
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Old 29th Aug 2008, 07:06
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Sorry kids

In most of the cases, I am in full agreement with 411A...
xxx
One thing I have seen these last 10-15, maybe 20 years, is a complete change of attitude of junior pilots with their senior pilots, particularly in Europe, and somewhat in North America.
xxx
When I recall my early days (PanAm 1969), we respected our captains, and enjoyed learning from their experience. Again, 90% of them were great guys, and we were sorry when they retired, as we missed them as our best friends, aviation scholars and teachers. They never failed to give us advice, and explain the why of many things in the planes. Our captains traded seats, it was legal then, I had plenty of experience in the LHS, which helped me a lot when I upgraded. I still use techniques, now in 2008, that I learned from them. I can even fly an ADF approach with 30 kts crosswind.
xxx
I flew with the last navigators, in the older 707s on oceanic routes, one of them had been navigator on Boeing 314s seaplanes, he was some 72 or 73 of age. They never failed to show us how to make a star shot, or how to use Loran A and Doppler navigation. We had a F/E aged 75 years. He knew the 707 from the tip of the radome to the tail light. Some never needed a troubleshooting manual to fix a malfunction.
xxx
I guess you "juniors" do resent that I occupy "YOUR" left seat so late in my career, yet I have kept the old traditions, and provide the best experience to the true friends I also have in the RH seat. Well, it is not my fault that PanAm went into bankruptcy in December 1991, forcing me to survive best as I could, and it is not me, who told you to invest 75,000 in ATPLs stored in your freezers. In the old days, you might have had to invest in a PPL, or a CPL/IR at worst.
xxx
Do not worry, I retire at end of November. and until then, as well, as 411A does with his stinking Havana cigars, I will bother you with my pipe and my cherry or maple flavored tobaccos, or my Marlboros. And please, remove your foot from my oxygen mask hose... Thank you.
xxx

Happy contrails
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