Conflict between old and young pilots in SAS
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You don't get respect by adding 4 stribes to an idiot.
You have to earn it !
If FO's in europe and north america lack somewhat in showing respect of senior officers then that's ok with me instead of crashing into the dirt by not commanding "go around" or taking prober action when the other guy dosn't.
By the way all the nice guy's are taking their pension i SAS
You have to earn it !
If FO's in europe and north america lack somewhat in showing respect of senior officers then that's ok with me instead of crashing into the dirt by not commanding "go around" or taking prober action when the other guy dosn't.
By the way all the nice guy's are taking their pension i SAS
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,095
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do believe that a lot of the younger posters on this thread are totally unaware that, until sometime in the 1970s, in the UK and many European countries the official retirement age was 65 (though some airlines had a lower, internal agreement). Sometime in the 1970s the USA, closely followed by the UK and followed on by other European countries changed the official retirement age, arbitrarily, overnight, to 60.
I missed out but some of my colleagues who joined expecting a full career to 65 and then had it amputated to 60 are lucky enough to get back their just deserts, a full career to 65.
The correct retirement age is 65, the actual retirement age maybe more, maybe less but only decided by ability to pass check rides and physical fitness. If a company can persuade you to retire before the legal age limit then they must offer considerable financial reward.
The idea of a 60+ captain drawing both salary and pension is absurd and illegal in most countries, equally absurd is the idea that they now sue their employer for not allowing them to bid for part time and collect large payments for working on their usual 'non-working' days. Can't they now be sacked under that catch all clause in most contracts, "Neglecting the best interests of the Company"?
I missed out but some of my colleagues who joined expecting a full career to 65 and then had it amputated to 60 are lucky enough to get back their just deserts, a full career to 65.
The correct retirement age is 65, the actual retirement age maybe more, maybe less but only decided by ability to pass check rides and physical fitness. If a company can persuade you to retire before the legal age limit then they must offer considerable financial reward.
The idea of a 60+ captain drawing both salary and pension is absurd and illegal in most countries, equally absurd is the idea that they now sue their employer for not allowing them to bid for part time and collect large payments for working on their usual 'non-working' days. Can't they now be sacked under that catch all clause in most contracts, "Neglecting the best interests of the Company"?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Accept it boys! That is the law- go to Brussels and see if you can do something about it (you can't). It will give you a longer career. Nobody will have any patience with you! You cannot change it.
About time.
I have to agree with all the other comments on this thread though.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Grrrr
Age: 17
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take Off
The article is in Danish, but it basically says that an agreement has been made between the union and SAS to let the 50 oldest pilots go by September 30th. and another 40 in 2009 while the younger pilots are retained.
The article is in Danish, but it basically says that an agreement has been made between the union and SAS to let the 50 oldest pilots go by September 30th. and another 40 in 2009 while the younger pilots are retained.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Around the block
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Finally a sensible decision by SAS, not too soon at all. 
SAS do have problems, especially with RHS pilots who have been there for about 10-12 years before the upgrade. Today I have no idea how long it would take to get your upgrade according to the seniority system. I would imagine that there are no upgrades in SAS now, except maybe for the few that gets them when the 40 or 50 oldest pilots leave.
Speaking of respect for your captain, its all down to culture, airline and individuals. There are captains who are upset becuase you dont call them "sir" or "captain", just by first name. Or that the company doesnt start the written letter by "Captain". Well thats very old school and my point of view is that that kind of CRM does not work anymore.
There are captains that still try and teach in a nice and structural way, which is great- there is a lot to learn.
There are captains that think they are Gods gift to aviation and tries to be something they are not, for example training captains. That is silly and just stupid.
I can agree that there is a change in mentality with the young, new and not very experienced RHS. They have attitude and sometimes a disrespectful manner towards the final decision making pilot; the captain. I know from own experience in the LHS that there are pilots in the RHS that tries to be smarter and faster than the captain, without reason. Just to prove themselves.
Annoying attitude- we have the same goal and its a team effort. Nothing for heros.
What has happened in some companies is that the time for upgrades has been very short due to expansion so the average age of time in the RHS did decreased a lot. Today the RHS people are now very impatient for their upgrades since the business has stopped again to expand.
Just relax and enjoy the ride
If not there is always BALPA 
SAS do have problems, especially with RHS pilots who have been there for about 10-12 years before the upgrade. Today I have no idea how long it would take to get your upgrade according to the seniority system. I would imagine that there are no upgrades in SAS now, except maybe for the few that gets them when the 40 or 50 oldest pilots leave.
Speaking of respect for your captain, its all down to culture, airline and individuals. There are captains who are upset becuase you dont call them "sir" or "captain", just by first name. Or that the company doesnt start the written letter by "Captain". Well thats very old school and my point of view is that that kind of CRM does not work anymore.
There are captains that still try and teach in a nice and structural way, which is great- there is a lot to learn.
There are captains that think they are Gods gift to aviation and tries to be something they are not, for example training captains. That is silly and just stupid.
I can agree that there is a change in mentality with the young, new and not very experienced RHS. They have attitude and sometimes a disrespectful manner towards the final decision making pilot; the captain. I know from own experience in the LHS that there are pilots in the RHS that tries to be smarter and faster than the captain, without reason. Just to prove themselves.
Annoying attitude- we have the same goal and its a team effort. Nothing for heros.
What has happened in some companies is that the time for upgrades has been very short due to expansion so the average age of time in the RHS did decreased a lot. Today the RHS people are now very impatient for their upgrades since the business has stopped again to expand.
Just relax and enjoy the ride
If not there is always BALPA
Last edited by Viking101; 3rd Sep 2008 at 00:11.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: denver, co
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you were hired at age 30 and retire at age 60 you should expect to spend 15+ years in the right seat. The only way that number shrinks is if the fleet size grows. in this age of shrinking fleets the reality is you may well spend over 50% of your career in thee right seat. If your carrier flys long haul and uses additional F/Os your time in the right seat goes up
This article says young SAS pilots have been busy threatening the older pilots, to the point of having legs broken if refusing to retire 
Scandinavian Airlines pilots bullying each other | IceNews - Daily News
Scandinavian Airlines pilots bullying each other | IceNews - Daily News
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not so fast.....
Rainboe,
I hate to rain on your parade, BUT, things are not as clear cut as you attempt to make them.
While EU directives generally supercedes national law, the interpretation of that directive or law, also depends on HOW the EU directive or law is written into national legislation.
FYI, the thinking up until now, is that both danish and norwegian laws, while allowing pilots to fly until age 65, ALSO allows employers and employees to come to some other arrangement. The swedish adaptation of age 65 on the other hand, seemingly, does not. At least that is the interpretation as of right now.
If I have to accept age 65, well then eventually I will. I will never like it, but I will learn to live with it. If, on the other hand SAS and the unions someday come to an agreement stating that you stop when you are 60, fine by me, that is what I prefer. (This obviously requires some sort of change of interpretation with regards to the swedish set of laws.)
A totally different situation arises when we talk about redundancies. Contrary to popular belief, the principle of Last In, First Out, is not a law. It is just that, a principle. Think about it, age discrimination is still age discrimination if you lay off the youngest first. Why is it more fair to fire the youngest pilots first? Well, it isnt, and to add injury to insult, they are not at a point in their lives where they can just retire.
With regards to the latest round of redundancies at SAS the company and the unions agreed that it surely is easier for somebody with a fully funded pension plan to deal with being laid off. I couldnt agree more!! That view is correct, morally right and logical. An added bonus for most of the captains reaching age 60 is that they USUALLY fly the A340 and thus have thousands of PIC hours on that airplane. That makes them able to relatively easily get another job. FYI, contributions to the pension plan stops when an SAS pilot reaches 60.
Regards,
Ramrise
I hate to rain on your parade, BUT, things are not as clear cut as you attempt to make them.
While EU directives generally supercedes national law, the interpretation of that directive or law, also depends on HOW the EU directive or law is written into national legislation.
FYI, the thinking up until now, is that both danish and norwegian laws, while allowing pilots to fly until age 65, ALSO allows employers and employees to come to some other arrangement. The swedish adaptation of age 65 on the other hand, seemingly, does not. At least that is the interpretation as of right now.
If I have to accept age 65, well then eventually I will. I will never like it, but I will learn to live with it. If, on the other hand SAS and the unions someday come to an agreement stating that you stop when you are 60, fine by me, that is what I prefer. (This obviously requires some sort of change of interpretation with regards to the swedish set of laws.)
A totally different situation arises when we talk about redundancies. Contrary to popular belief, the principle of Last In, First Out, is not a law. It is just that, a principle. Think about it, age discrimination is still age discrimination if you lay off the youngest first. Why is it more fair to fire the youngest pilots first? Well, it isnt, and to add injury to insult, they are not at a point in their lives where they can just retire.
With regards to the latest round of redundancies at SAS the company and the unions agreed that it surely is easier for somebody with a fully funded pension plan to deal with being laid off. I couldnt agree more!! That view is correct, morally right and logical. An added bonus for most of the captains reaching age 60 is that they USUALLY fly the A340 and thus have thousands of PIC hours on that airplane. That makes them able to relatively easily get another job. FYI, contributions to the pension plan stops when an SAS pilot reaches 60.
Regards,
Ramrise
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Absolutely right, the basic EU directive had to be put into national laws and those differe considerably. In germany it is possible to restrict the maximum working age by union/company contracts as well as by other national laws. Same applies to france as far as i know.
Actually the general retirement age in germany is raising at the moment to 67 and everyone who retires earlier has to take a hefty decrease in state pension. Something that pilots are forced to do anyway since they cannot work longer than 65 (means a 14% lower state pension although they put in the maximum amount possible over their working life).
Lufthansa has a special company pension scheme which allows pilots to retire earlier and still earn enough money to live on (well, more than enough actually). The german ATC provider (DFS) has an agreement with its ATCOs that they have to retire at 55 and are kept on a salary as well. So that is not only a single case with Lufty. Of course in the case of the pilots it is the official union policy that pilots should retire latest at 60, and it lobbies very strongly within IFALPA to keep that the international policy (which it still is as far as i know).
Actually the general retirement age in germany is raising at the moment to 67 and everyone who retires earlier has to take a hefty decrease in state pension. Something that pilots are forced to do anyway since they cannot work longer than 65 (means a 14% lower state pension although they put in the maximum amount possible over their working life).
Lufthansa has a special company pension scheme which allows pilots to retire earlier and still earn enough money to live on (well, more than enough actually). The german ATC provider (DFS) has an agreement with its ATCOs that they have to retire at 55 and are kept on a salary as well. So that is not only a single case with Lufty. Of course in the case of the pilots it is the official union policy that pilots should retire latest at 60, and it lobbies very strongly within IFALPA to keep that the international policy (which it still is as far as i know).
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Matter of perspective!
Ecam,
with all due respect, I think that you got it backwards.
I am on the fast track to becoming a 20 year FO, and so be it. All I really want is some sort of career progression, personal development, call it want you want. At my company the pay increase is somewhere around 15%, when you make captain, possibly even a little less. And with the tax system here is Denmark, the leftovers are pathetic. And incidently, we get our pension based on years of service, not years in any given seat.
On the other hand, I think that the 60+ crowd are staying for the money, pure and simple. They have a good life, so hey, "gimme more"!!
I realize that not all companies have the same setup, but the majority of pilots, if you ask me, get into the business because of some all consuming
interest in aviation. We would all like to sample as many apects of the job as possible, nothing more or less.
Now, a given group of people, most of whom experienced the golden age of airline flying and benefitted from age 60 themselves, are clinging to the "dream" and negatively impacting my career. That obviously breeds discontent. Again, not financially!
Regards,
Ramrise
with all due respect, I think that you got it backwards.
I am on the fast track to becoming a 20 year FO, and so be it. All I really want is some sort of career progression, personal development, call it want you want. At my company the pay increase is somewhere around 15%, when you make captain, possibly even a little less. And with the tax system here is Denmark, the leftovers are pathetic. And incidently, we get our pension based on years of service, not years in any given seat.
On the other hand, I think that the 60+ crowd are staying for the money, pure and simple. They have a good life, so hey, "gimme more"!!
I realize that not all companies have the same setup, but the majority of pilots, if you ask me, get into the business because of some all consuming
interest in aviation. We would all like to sample as many apects of the job as possible, nothing more or less.
Now, a given group of people, most of whom experienced the golden age of airline flying and benefitted from age 60 themselves, are clinging to the "dream" and negatively impacting my career. That obviously breeds discontent. Again, not financially!
Regards,
Ramrise
Last edited by Ramrise; 3rd Sep 2008 at 06:17.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Heart
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is nothing new or discriminatory about laying off all those near pensionable age first. Tis common practice and exactly what most unions encourage as in Sterling at the moment.
Win/win for all parties.
Win/win for all parties.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I am turning 60 in 20 years, I hope, that I will still get respect from my FOs
If on the other hand you decide to deprive your colleagues of the benefits and opportunities of advancement that you yourself have taken advantage of throughout your career, then do expect to be ostracized.
Trash du Blanc
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: KBHM
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I spent nearly 19 years waiting for upgrade.
Recall also that your 26 years tenure as captain was by no means a sure thing at that point. In my company us pilots have a 25% chance of losing our medical before reaching 60. The odds of your company getting shot out from under you by bankruptcy are growing bigger and bigger. It's fine to look back and say that the balance of your career was fine, but none of that was guaranteed at the midway point.
The resentment of first officers may seem distasteful to you now. Trust me, the perspective is different for those of us on the other side. I actually had a 757 Captain class date before the law was changed. Now, it will be another 5 years.
It is, really, all about whose ox is being gored.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's ridiculous!!! I am sixteen and have always wanted to become a pilot, not for the seniority or the money, but for a passion of flying. I just don't see that in pilots anymore...
Pitiful
Pitiful
For the life of me, I cannot understand why people would want to stay beyond 60. Does anyone have an idea about pilot's life expectancy after retirement ??? Nothing to be too cheery about from what I have seen. As to medical scrutiny; give me a break, the medical has become a joke. As from July, European pilots won't need a second medical beyond 40. Anyone who wants to stay the fair age of 60 either has 4 ex wives or no life at home..............or both.
Clear the pad.
PS:
Norway is a fantastic place !!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This attitude need drastic re-evaluation. There are very simple rights here:
1- The private financial arrangements of Captains are none of your business, It is their private matter. If they get salary and pension, what has that got to do with you?
2- I signed a contract in 1970. My pay in it was £1900 a year. It gets renegotiated and changed over the years. What has any original contract term got to do with it when it gets renegotiated every year?
3- There is a serious problem with inexperienced copilots hustling for commands. It is pitiful to force out a lot of experience because of hustling from the right hand seat.
4- It's a job. Not happy? Move- see if you find better. I spent nearly 19 years waiting for upgrade. I hope to have 26 years as Captain. You must expect up to half your career in the right hand seat, maybe better for you with the gradual expansion of the industry.
1- The private financial arrangements of Captains are none of your business, It is their private matter. If they get salary and pension, what has that got to do with you?
2- I signed a contract in 1970. My pay in it was £1900 a year. It gets renegotiated and changed over the years. What has any original contract term got to do with it when it gets renegotiated every year?
3- There is a serious problem with inexperienced copilots hustling for commands. It is pitiful to force out a lot of experience because of hustling from the right hand seat.
4- It's a job. Not happy? Move- see if you find better. I spent nearly 19 years waiting for upgrade. I hope to have 26 years as Captain. You must expect up to half your career in the right hand seat, maybe better for you with the gradual expansion of the industry.
2- Well, nothing. What's your point? Or are you confusing the terms "contract" and "law"?
3- Do a little research (or just read the previous posts). In this particular case your "inexperienced copilots" have a minimum of 10+ years with the company (plus probably a fair amount of prior experience) and are 40+ years old. Those are the junior guys, facing yet another round of lay offs. The senior FO's have 17 years with the company - with no upgrade in sight. Please explain what hustling they are guilty of.
4- "You must expect up to half your career in the right hand seat". Hey Einstein, do a little math here and tell us what you come up with.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Floating around the planet
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots are smart just to fly planes. For everything else are stupid like a chicken.
While in all other professions struggle to reduce their age for retirement....the smarts pilots want to fly more...
The problem is that such an inteligence seems to be common worldwide...
To have an idea of what is negociate conditins, I will tell you that Lisbon controlers retire at age 55.They fought for that.
And if they want to keep working till age 60 MAX. besides their salary they get more 7000 euros each 3 month.
But the pilots....soon will be talking about retiring at age 80 y.o.
While in all other professions struggle to reduce their age for retirement....the smarts pilots want to fly more...
The problem is that such an inteligence seems to be common worldwide...
To have an idea of what is negociate conditins, I will tell you that Lisbon controlers retire at age 55.They fought for that.
And if they want to keep working till age 60 MAX. besides their salary they get more 7000 euros each 3 month.
But the pilots....soon will be talking about retiring at age 80 y.o.