Pilot Letter about UAL MGMT (get ready for a long read...), UAL 895..7/26/08
Frequent SLF:
Point taken, and I agree that being willing to extend if the price was right does on its face seem a bit "prostitute-like". One would think that it's either okay to extend or it's not, the price be damned. But it's a whole lot easier to second guess his actions from the comfort of our keyboards. Having been there a time or two in my career, such situations are dynamic and one manages as best they can. I'd like to think that someone freshly awake and alert would not have been willing to do it "for a price", but I could be wrong. It's also fair to say that negotiating a schedule change or an overtime payment is hardly new in the industry, and in fact is commonplace at many airlines, including UAL. I'm pretty sure that he'd had similar negotiations with crew scheduling in the past, probably with success in getting what he wanted. So when they were resisitant to his idea, it no doubt struck an already tired nerve. Hence the long scathing letter to his union.
All that said, I still believe he cared for his pax better than his company did. Many folks would have walked off with little more than a goodbye announcement.
As for the opinion of the journo, I took the time to forward a copy of the captain's letter to him. I don't know if I'll get a response, but I'm monitoring the web site to see if he writes a follow-up.
J.O.
Point taken, and I agree that being willing to extend if the price was right does on its face seem a bit "prostitute-like". One would think that it's either okay to extend or it's not, the price be damned. But it's a whole lot easier to second guess his actions from the comfort of our keyboards. Having been there a time or two in my career, such situations are dynamic and one manages as best they can. I'd like to think that someone freshly awake and alert would not have been willing to do it "for a price", but I could be wrong. It's also fair to say that negotiating a schedule change or an overtime payment is hardly new in the industry, and in fact is commonplace at many airlines, including UAL. I'm pretty sure that he'd had similar negotiations with crew scheduling in the past, probably with success in getting what he wanted. So when they were resisitant to his idea, it no doubt struck an already tired nerve. Hence the long scathing letter to his union.
All that said, I still believe he cared for his pax better than his company did. Many folks would have walked off with little more than a goodbye announcement.
As for the opinion of the journo, I took the time to forward a copy of the captain's letter to him. I don't know if I'll get a response, but I'm monitoring the web site to see if he writes a follow-up.
J.O.
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Guangzhou is just 50nm north of Hong Kong. It just takes an hour by bus, plus train services every 15 minutes to Hong Kong. It has 2 runways at least 11,000 feet each in length. UAL should use this as a better alternative since they know the Flightdeck/cabin crew will be exceeding duty time if ever they misapproach in Hong Kong. I've been operating in and out of Hongkong the past 6 years, and usually when the weather is crap...ferry service to macau come at a standstill. 300pax can easily be transported to hongkong easier via guangzhou than Macau.
Just my 2 cents...
Just my 2 cents...
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posted by etrang:
He wasn't prepared to travel by ferry, but was quite happy to travel by a helicopter, in fact he asked twice, that had also not been inspected and approved by ALPA.
He wasn't prepared to travel by ferry, but was quite happy to travel by a helicopter, in fact he asked twice, that had also not been inspected and approved by ALPA.
posted by 742:
But I do feel for the crew and passengers. Before I retire I would again like to ride on an international flight on an American airline where the management actually gives a d*** about running the airline.
But I do feel for the crew and passengers. Before I retire I would again like to ride on an international flight on an American airline where the management actually gives a d*** about running the airline.
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Also, Captain Kravitts' talks about wise and cost effective business decisions, then wants a private chopper over the Macau-HK ferry. Interesting...
Hardly surprising when you think about it.
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J. O.
Pretty worrying...if such was the situation, how the safety of the PAX would have been ensured if he did extend his duty time? Is there a max duty time, which is not negotiable?
I fully agree.
Thanks for mentioning that, otherwise he would have received twice the same request. 
AN
I'd like to think that someone freshly awake and alert would not have been willing to do it "for a price",
it no doubt struck an already tired nerve
All that said, I still believe he cared for his pax better than his company did. Many folks would have walked off with little more than a goodbye announcement.
As for the opinion of the journo, I took the time to forward a copy of the captain's letter to him. I don't know if I'll get a response, but I'm monitoring the web site to see if he writes a follow-up.
AN
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That's a fair point. Also, Captain Kravitts' talks about wise and cost effective business decisions, then wants a private chopper over the Macau-HK ferry. Interesting...
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I think there's a little too much emphasis on how hard the diversion was. untill the apron being closed it doesn't seem much out of the ordinary. Usually they are at the end of the flight, usually to an previously unknown airport, often due to weather and it's also usual that you have to do your own fueling.
Long and stressfull day? Yes!
Reason for compensation? Yes, but not at passengers cost!
We are not paid the bigs bucks to fly the plane from A to B only. The autopilot does that.
We're paid to fly it from A to B and handle the problems you encounter! Part of the deal (and it makes work interesting).
Otherwise you should be a passenger yourself.
BTW Personally I rather divert after a longhaul with relief-pilot's then after an 9 hour flight without relief. Not only because of the rest but also because of the extra hands on the ground.
Long and stressfull day? Yes!
Reason for compensation? Yes, but not at passengers cost!
We are not paid the bigs bucks to fly the plane from A to B only. The autopilot does that.
We're paid to fly it from A to B and handle the problems you encounter! Part of the deal (and it makes work interesting).
Otherwise you should be a passenger yourself.
BTW Personally I rather divert after a longhaul with relief-pilot's then after an 9 hour flight without relief. Not only because of the rest but also because of the extra hands on the ground.
Last edited by golfyankeesierra; 8th Aug 2008 at 07:46.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Only SLF here, but I felt the same. When I got to the bit about the ferry not having been inspected by ALPA, it was a bit like the thirteenth chime of the clock: that which makes you start to doubt everything that has gone before.
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JH Junior,
Guangzhou is a better choice in all ways.... except Chinese visa. HK and Macau do not need a visa for most people, thus passanges can get off the plane and perhaps go to a hotel or such if needed. In Gaungzhou unless you have a visa already or are chinese, you will be stuck on the plane or in the departure lounge.
Guangzhou is a better choice in all ways.... except Chinese visa. HK and Macau do not need a visa for most people, thus passanges can get off the plane and perhaps go to a hotel or such if needed. In Gaungzhou unless you have a visa already or are chinese, you will be stuck on the plane or in the departure lounge.
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Ual 985
I'm afraid it's a problem of the american people in general. Why would I be afraid to turn my back to somebody when I just walk on a street anywhere in the world? Neither am I afraid to take a public bus, train or ferry, even in uniform. I would n't even think of chartering a private chopper, I'm just european
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"...Ual 985
I'm afraid it's a problem of the american people in general. Why would I be afraid to turn my back to somebody when I just walk on a street anywhere in the world? Neither am I afraid to take a public bus, train or ferry, even in uniform. I would n't even think of chartering a private chopper, I'm just european."
Guess you have not been on buses and trains in India and Pakistan.
I'm afraid it's a problem of the american people in general. Why would I be afraid to turn my back to somebody when I just walk on a street anywhere in the world? Neither am I afraid to take a public bus, train or ferry, even in uniform. I would n't even think of chartering a private chopper, I'm just european."
Guess you have not been on buses and trains in India and Pakistan.
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Is it possible that the stuff about the ferry and helicopter were merely a way of getting back at the people who'd failed to do anything to help the flight earlier?
Let us not forget that some at UAL had an ALPA 'action' a few months ago, something about not wearing hats, and the disruption it caused to one flight.
What it amounts to is grown-ups with childish actions.
Never a pretty sight....
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Got a dozen stories like this myself flying for rat **** non scheds over the years.
UAL is having an internal nervous breakdown.
Money? not fatigued. No money? fatigued.
Attempting to "cut deals" while 300 pax sit in UAL coach seats. Spoiled brats.
Couldn't confirm the ferryboat was ALPA approved. My favorite part.
You guys better wakeup and start "asking" to "go the extra mile" or you might find yourselves on the "dark side" flying for companies like Spirit and Allegiant, making plumber wages.
UAL is having an internal nervous breakdown.
Money? not fatigued. No money? fatigued.
Attempting to "cut deals" while 300 pax sit in UAL coach seats. Spoiled brats.
Couldn't confirm the ferryboat was ALPA approved. My favorite part.
You guys better wakeup and start "asking" to "go the extra mile" or you might find yourselves on the "dark side" flying for companies like Spirit and Allegiant, making plumber wages.
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Yep. I think you're right jetjackel.
But guys the ALPA approved ferry stuff, is probably not revenge or leverage, but likely just paranoia on the part of the Captain. Recall, he said it was his first trip over there, I think.
Macau has had a reputation in the past for gangsters and casino shootouts. Not sure if I'd want to board a ferry in bad weather with a dozen out to lunch, PMSing battleaxes making my life hell all the way over there! With my luck they'd pull their sky-witch prune-face routine on the "bamboo gang" or even worse you might run into some of your former passengers who were treated like dirt from another flight!
While 411a blames union mentality; I blame management for causing the union in the first place.
But guys the ALPA approved ferry stuff, is probably not revenge or leverage, but likely just paranoia on the part of the Captain. Recall, he said it was his first trip over there, I think.
Macau has had a reputation in the past for gangsters and casino shootouts. Not sure if I'd want to board a ferry in bad weather with a dozen out to lunch, PMSing battleaxes making my life hell all the way over there! With my luck they'd pull their sky-witch prune-face routine on the "bamboo gang" or even worse you might run into some of your former passengers who were treated like dirt from another flight!
While 411a blames union mentality; I blame management for causing the union in the first place.
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From Macau website.
Travel time 60 to 75 min. VIP Cabins!
Well... hardly a dangerous or unconfortable trip!
Non approved by ALPA!
What about the PAX waited several hours for a crew replacement!
AN
TURBOJET operates almost 24 hours per day. Journeys between Macau and Hong Kong are hassle-free and convenient. The ticket price ranges from HK$142 in Economy class on weekdays for day service to HK$176 Economy class for night service. Tickets in Super class range from HK$240 to HK$275, and VIP cabins for 4 to 6 persons are also available at prices from HK$960 to HK$1,650.
The new CotaiJet high-speed catamarans connect customers between Hong Kong and Taipa Temporary Ferry Terminal in comfort. Operation hours are 07:00 to 17:00 at Hong Kong Macau Ferry Terminal every day. Shuttle buses are available from the Taipa Temporary Ferry Terminal to The Venetian Macao-Resort-hotel when you disembark from a ferry. The new CotaiJet service offers a choice of 3: Cotai Class, Cotai First and two of Cotai VIP Cabin (8 seats per Cotai VIP Cabin). The ticket prices range from HK$134 to HK$146 for Cotai Class and from HK$236 to HK$252 for Cotai First. Cotai VIP Cabin for 8 persons is available from HK$1,888 to HK$2,016.
Catamarans from the First Ferry offer roundtrip sailings between Macau and Kowloon, arriving at the China(HK) Ferry Terminal in Tsim Sha Tsui. Travel time is approximately 60 to 75 minutes. The ticket price ranges from HK$140 to HK$275. Economy class passengers are allowed to carry on board, free of charge, one piece of luggage not exceeding 20 kg in weight and Super class passengers are permitted one piece of luggage not exceeding 30 kg. Please note that the sum of length, width and height of the luggage may not exceed 158 cm (62 inches).
The new CotaiJet high-speed catamarans connect customers between Hong Kong and Taipa Temporary Ferry Terminal in comfort. Operation hours are 07:00 to 17:00 at Hong Kong Macau Ferry Terminal every day. Shuttle buses are available from the Taipa Temporary Ferry Terminal to The Venetian Macao-Resort-hotel when you disembark from a ferry. The new CotaiJet service offers a choice of 3: Cotai Class, Cotai First and two of Cotai VIP Cabin (8 seats per Cotai VIP Cabin). The ticket prices range from HK$134 to HK$146 for Cotai Class and from HK$236 to HK$252 for Cotai First. Cotai VIP Cabin for 8 persons is available from HK$1,888 to HK$2,016.
Catamarans from the First Ferry offer roundtrip sailings between Macau and Kowloon, arriving at the China(HK) Ferry Terminal in Tsim Sha Tsui. Travel time is approximately 60 to 75 minutes. The ticket price ranges from HK$140 to HK$275. Economy class passengers are allowed to carry on board, free of charge, one piece of luggage not exceeding 20 kg in weight and Super class passengers are permitted one piece of luggage not exceeding 30 kg. Please note that the sum of length, width and height of the luggage may not exceed 158 cm (62 inches).
Well... hardly a dangerous or unconfortable trip!
Non approved by ALPA!
What about the PAX waited several hours for a crew replacement!
AN
