Pilot Letter about UAL MGMT (get ready for a long read...), UAL 895..7/26/08
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411a's loathing of ALPA displayed for all to see. Just because you are a bigot it does not confer legitimacy to all your pronouncements. You are famously selective in ignoring issues that dont fit your union-hating agenda too, but I guess thats a characteristic of bigotry anyway.
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I remember a BBC series called "back to the floor" might be time for mgmt, to relearn the system
ALPA.
Lorenzo was right...ALPA doesn't have a clue.
Never has, never will.
None, nada, zip.
Proven...time and time again.
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The UAL Captain in question was just making excuses.
If he and his crew were out of duty time, it's off to hotac.
As it should be.
Further, the said UAL Captain was only trying to bargin for a better deal, and in fact, was not looking after his passengers in a reasonable and prudent manner, by trying to bargin to drop trips in order to extend his flight duty period.
If he and his crew were out of duty time, it's off to hotac.
As it should be.
Further, the said UAL Captain was only trying to bargin for a better deal, and in fact, was not looking after his passengers in a reasonable and prudent manner, by trying to bargin to drop trips in order to extend his flight duty period.
He said that he kept the passengers informed about the situation, I do wonder if he updated the passengers about his personal negotiations with UAL...
AN
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As far as this UAL Captain on this forum: only those who are on the brink of fatigue know the limits. In his case: precious time with our families is our biggest motivator. I have known pilots with children and wives with cancer or other life-related events to hold to a picket line for the bottom line; and in this Captain's scenario: a fellow family member's health, and the help you can bring to it can seriously outweigh the stress and fatigue that you PLAN to experience once you get home. The FAA is VERY specific about our flying conditions whilst under Stress, Fatigue, and Emotion. If you have not had an experience as an airline pilot YOU do not understand the implications of violating these FARs. As a person, think about knowing that you could have extra time with your dying mother (think of your mother now) and truly understand the caring, family person, and loving motivation that this Captain had in this scenario. He chose less pay over time with his mother. For those of who have not lost a love one you do not understand that KNOWING you can spend more time with them is more valuable and will motivate you out of any fatigue situation!! Those of you with any heart or compassion may possibly begin to understand the motivation of family over pay; those that criticise here are merely greedy.
Please understand I don't know this Captain, I've only read this forum, and it relates to my priorities: time with my family. Life is not merely work. I would take the $1000+ less pay to have more time with my family at any point.
As far as the ferry: Americans are not valued or well-liked outside of the U.S. right now. Do I need to tell you this or are you blind and deaf?! Americans currently are harrassed and assaulted all over the world; even those who never supported this derelict U.S. President. Have you missed the rioting and picketing? A security issue, of course. And not necessarily for a European or Asian. If a chopper costs nearly the same as a ferry, and as a large crew actually ends up cheaper; why not provide this simple service after a long trip and night? Management is just plain arrogant at this point.
But those of you who criticise clearly will not be as good of Captains as this man has been. He's been praised by his passengers. We can only do our jobs so well with people like you criticising. Reading this forum is like reading about all of the negative people in life, who don't actually care about the importance of life: the comfort and safety of our passengers and most importantly, our families.
Good luck out there.
To this Captain, and myself experiencing a similar scenario I say
.
Please understand I don't know this Captain, I've only read this forum, and it relates to my priorities: time with my family. Life is not merely work. I would take the $1000+ less pay to have more time with my family at any point.
As far as the ferry: Americans are not valued or well-liked outside of the U.S. right now. Do I need to tell you this or are you blind and deaf?! Americans currently are harrassed and assaulted all over the world; even those who never supported this derelict U.S. President. Have you missed the rioting and picketing? A security issue, of course. And not necessarily for a European or Asian. If a chopper costs nearly the same as a ferry, and as a large crew actually ends up cheaper; why not provide this simple service after a long trip and night? Management is just plain arrogant at this point.
But those of you who criticise clearly will not be as good of Captains as this man has been. He's been praised by his passengers. We can only do our jobs so well with people like you criticising. Reading this forum is like reading about all of the negative people in life, who don't actually care about the importance of life: the comfort and safety of our passengers and most importantly, our families.
Good luck out there.
To this Captain, and myself experiencing a similar scenario I say
.
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Most professional pilots have been in similar situations at least once or twice, perhaps more times, in their life.
On your own, in some God-forsaken place that you are unfamiliar with.
The complicating factors are usually.
Crew duty limitations, contractual or legal.
Weather.
Tech problems.
Handling problems.
Communications.
To the Ops dept you are now just one big headache, and they will do almost anything to keep the flight alive.
They will book you on "airlines" that you would not even allow your mother in law on. They will put you in hotels where the rats are as big as dogs, on top of a freight marshalling yard, and air conditioning is a 50/50 hit and miss deal.
They will bend the truth, and play semantics with words and intents, just to complete the flight.
Safety drops to the lower end of the priority list, its about getting the flight done.
If you are not willing to bend the rules, you are likely to be labelled as "troublesome" by your management.
That is why there are unions. And why unions get involved in the suitability of hotels, and transportation.
And to someone who asked about armed guards; I have been scheduled into a country where we had an armed backup car follow the crew bus to and from hotel because of several incidents of armed robbery.
I have never even seen the ferries talked of, and they are probably luxurious and safe, but I continually read and see reports of overloaded ferries sinking in bad weather in the far east, so I would be very leery of jumping willy nilly on said ferries unless someone I trust had done the research.
I dont know about the airline under discussion here, but in my day, the limits to be applied were the most restrictive of either the legal limits, or the contractual limits, which were encompassed in the ops manual. Once it was in the ops manual, an "approved document", it was legally binding unless the legal (regulatory) limit was more restrictive.
I must add the caveat that I am retired since 2004, and flew for an airline that had an impeccable safety record, and by and large the ops people were a bunch of very decent guys, but pressure changes the nature of the game. I suspect that not much has changed since my day.
On your own, in some God-forsaken place that you are unfamiliar with.
The complicating factors are usually.
Crew duty limitations, contractual or legal.
Weather.
Tech problems.
Handling problems.
Communications.
To the Ops dept you are now just one big headache, and they will do almost anything to keep the flight alive.
They will book you on "airlines" that you would not even allow your mother in law on. They will put you in hotels where the rats are as big as dogs, on top of a freight marshalling yard, and air conditioning is a 50/50 hit and miss deal.
They will bend the truth, and play semantics with words and intents, just to complete the flight.
Safety drops to the lower end of the priority list, its about getting the flight done.
If you are not willing to bend the rules, you are likely to be labelled as "troublesome" by your management.
That is why there are unions. And why unions get involved in the suitability of hotels, and transportation.
And to someone who asked about armed guards; I have been scheduled into a country where we had an armed backup car follow the crew bus to and from hotel because of several incidents of armed robbery.
I have never even seen the ferries talked of, and they are probably luxurious and safe, but I continually read and see reports of overloaded ferries sinking in bad weather in the far east, so I would be very leery of jumping willy nilly on said ferries unless someone I trust had done the research.
I dont know about the airline under discussion here, but in my day, the limits to be applied were the most restrictive of either the legal limits, or the contractual limits, which were encompassed in the ops manual. Once it was in the ops manual, an "approved document", it was legally binding unless the legal (regulatory) limit was more restrictive.
I must add the caveat that I am retired since 2004, and flew for an airline that had an impeccable safety record, and by and large the ops people were a bunch of very decent guys, but pressure changes the nature of the game. I suspect that not much has changed since my day.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
As to positioning back to HK - do you as a responsible Commander in a post 9/11 world place a crew of perhaps 18 to 20 plus American Citizens in uniform on what amounts to a public bus, presumably prior to being asked to operate? Note the tragedy of an American Citizen knifed to death at the Olympics by a random member of the Chinese public. I would be very hesitant to do that as a Commander with a duty of care to my crew.
On your own, in some God-forsaken place that you are unfamiliar with.
...
I have never even seen the ferries talked of, and they are probably luxurious and safe, but I continually read and see reports of overloaded ferries sinking in bad weather in the far east, so I would be very leery of jumping willy nilly on said ferries unless someone I trust had done the research.
...
I have never even seen the ferries talked of, and they are probably luxurious and safe, but I continually read and see reports of overloaded ferries sinking in bad weather in the far east, so I would be very leery of jumping willy nilly on said ferries unless someone I trust had done the research.
We aren't talking about God-forsaken places here. We aren't talking about cowboy parts of the Far East with poor safety standards. We aren't even talking about China, for goodness' sake.
We're talking about Macau and Hong Kong - firmly first world countries, and about as cosmpolitan as you could find anywhere. Thousands of Americans live here, together with just about every other nationality under the sun. And nobody cares.
This is the bit of the letter that went way beyond reason and jumped firmly into wild paranoia. And that therefore calls the individual's judgement into question.And I have to ask this: While I can understand being exhausted on a dark blustery night, what on earth is someone doing flying long-haul airliners if they are going to come over feeling all insecure and emotional just from being in ... well, another first world country? Wrong job, perhaps?
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And I have to ask this: While I can understand being exhausted on a dark blustery night, what on earth is someone doing flying long-haul airliners if they are going to come over feeling all insecure and emotional just from being in ... well, another first world country? Wrong job, perhaps?
Clearly, the UAL Captain was totally out of his league, and in fact, more than likely, should never have left the US mainland, with his completely 'left field' attitude.
In short, he simply could not cope with the situation he found himself in, and therefore was looking for excuses.
Fact.
Never send a 'boy' to do a man's job.
The UAL Captain?
Just another little boy in tall trousers.
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Having read this lot... I am nolonger so sad about failing the UAL pilot selection "StayNine" tests in 1967.
Also having failed this test....It also prevented me being hired by
Eastern Airlines and other great American Airlines like Pan Amm and National.....with all the "Right stuff" selected how could they all have failed?
Possibly...The management was the "Wrong Stuff".
Also having failed this test....It also prevented me being hired by
Eastern Airlines and other great American Airlines like Pan Amm and National.....with all the "Right stuff" selected how could they all have failed?
Possibly...The management was the "Wrong Stuff".
Motivation and Fatigue
All Smiles wrote:
'For those of who have not lost a love one you do not understand that KNOWING you can spend more time with them is more valuable and will motivate you out of any fatigue situation!!'
I'm intrigued by the concept of being motivated out of fatigue. Surely fatigue is not merely an unmotivated state. In this context, it's a condition of reduced ability to function. Which could be fatal.
'For those of who have not lost a love one you do not understand that KNOWING you can spend more time with them is more valuable and will motivate you out of any fatigue situation!!'
I'm intrigued by the concept of being motivated out of fatigue. Surely fatigue is not merely an unmotivated state. In this context, it's a condition of reduced ability to function. Which could be fatal.
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Fatigue, my foot.
Many junior pilots cry 'fatigue' all day long.
I say...bull cr*p.
Many of these junior pilots don't know the meaning of the word.
They go out and disco all night, then cry 'fatigue' at the least opportunity.
Sorry guys, won't pass muster.
Then we have the folks who say.....'but our families are important, we need more time with them.
Airlines don't give a rats a**about this.
When these pilots walked through the HR door, they asked for a JOB ...OMG, what an absolute surprise
The scenario is, either these folks put up or shut up...management doesn't care...they will simply move on to the next guy/gal...and there are plenty in line.
Many junior pilots cry 'fatigue' all day long.
I say...bull cr*p.
Many of these junior pilots don't know the meaning of the word.
They go out and disco all night, then cry 'fatigue' at the least opportunity.
Sorry guys, won't pass muster.
Then we have the folks who say.....'but our families are important, we need more time with them.
Airlines don't give a rats a**about this.
When these pilots walked through the HR door, they asked for a JOB ...OMG, what an absolute surprise
The scenario is, either these folks put up or shut up...management doesn't care...they will simply move on to the next guy/gal...and there are plenty in line.
Last edited by 411A; 17th Aug 2008 at 09:57.
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411A what a crock of pure Sh*t you talk, a crock of cr*p. You are unfit to command an airliner let alone unfit to hold a management position in any airline. If fatigue is irrelevant, if any quality of life issues are irrelevant and flight crew experience within an airline worthless as you assert then I dont want to be anywhere near an airline where your principles apply, either as a passenger or indeed in the same airspace. What was your outfit called? I doubt very much that a responsible airline insurer would want to underwrite such an airline either.
Who in the future will want to enter the airline industry when it becomes, as you so enthusiastically urge, a sweatshop with no interest or concern for the safety critical component, the thing that keeps your wife and kids when they are passengering on that airline you despise alive when the chips are down. If you think through the logical consequences of your statement you are advocating the ruination of your own profession. But I dont think rational thought is your strongpoint really is it, not with over five thousand posts slagging-off your own profession to your name? More of a reflex action really. Says it all.
Who in the future will want to enter the airline industry when it becomes, as you so enthusiastically urge, a sweatshop with no interest or concern for the safety critical component, the thing that keeps your wife and kids when they are passengering on that airline you despise alive when the chips are down. If you think through the logical consequences of your statement you are advocating the ruination of your own profession. But I dont think rational thought is your strongpoint really is it, not with over five thousand posts slagging-off your own profession to your name? More of a reflex action really. Says it all.
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To illustrate my point, the stories below show what can happen in "God forsaken" places (in this case Philly and Piarco) .
When the excrement hits the ventilator, the Capt is left with tons of theoretical authority, but no power to get anything useful done.
Unless you are the John Wayne type, like someone we know, in which case you jump out the cockpit window on to your horse, and ride off to find the cavalry.
Wimpy ALPA types, cry your eyes out.
(Tongue in cheek warning for those with thin skin.)
[
When the excrement hits the ventilator, the Capt is left with tons of theoretical authority, but no power to get anything useful done.
Unless you are the John Wayne type, like someone we know, in which case you jump out the cockpit window on to your horse, and ride off to find the cavalry.
Wimpy ALPA types, cry your eyes out.
(Tongue in cheek warning for those with thin skin.)
[
Last edited by ZQA297/30; 18th Aug 2008 at 09:40. Reason: links stopped working, deleted.
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<<Who in the future will want to enter the airline industry when it becomes, as you so enthusiastically urge...>>
No less than at least four applicants for every one pilot hired.
In other words...thousands.
Climb down from your ivory tower, Fred.
Do you really believe that line pilots have any advantage to lever a more favorable deal from airline management?
The recently aborted BALPA 'action' versus British Airways should provide a clue...provided of course that you are prepared to actually read between the lines and thereby truly understand the situation.
ALPA is a dead duck.
No less than at least four applicants for every one pilot hired.
In other words...thousands.
Climb down from your ivory tower, Fred.
Do you really believe that line pilots have any advantage to lever a more favorable deal from airline management?
The recently aborted BALPA 'action' versus British Airways should provide a clue...provided of course that you are prepared to actually read between the lines and thereby truly understand the situation.
ALPA is a dead duck.
Funny, I don't find 411A's postings offensive at all. But then again, that's because long ago I made him the one and only member on my IGNORE list. It's a wonderful feature, and it keeps the stress level much lower on what can sometimes be a pretty frustrating forum.
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I can *sort of* see where 411a is coming from.
Too many people today are locked in a "them V us " attitude. all out for what they can GET....no thought of commitment to GIVE,just trying to get away with the least possible input.
possibly the pilot on the O.P. could have been firmer with the tossers he was dealing with.-bargaining certainly removed any high ground he may have occupied.
In extremis, phone the Managing Director! Make it your business to know HOW to contact the "top dogs".....they'll be well pee'd off if their leisure (or business) is disrupted because some "manager" doesn't!....they get paid good money to insulate the big-cheeses from this sort of crap
It's drastic, but it works! any employer who's crap enough to ignore you, or allow y"sanctions" to go unchecked, is not worth working for anyway!
I've always gone "the extra mile" for employers/customers.Ultimately went self-employed over 30 years ago....no manager dictates to me
Too many people today are locked in a "them V us " attitude. all out for what they can GET....no thought of commitment to GIVE,just trying to get away with the least possible input.
possibly the pilot on the O.P. could have been firmer with the tossers he was dealing with.-bargaining certainly removed any high ground he may have occupied.
In extremis, phone the Managing Director! Make it your business to know HOW to contact the "top dogs".....they'll be well pee'd off if their leisure (or business) is disrupted because some "manager" doesn't!....they get paid good money to insulate the big-cheeses from this sort of crap
It's drastic, but it works! any employer who's crap enough to ignore you, or allow y"sanctions" to go unchecked, is not worth working for anyway!
I've always gone "the extra mile" for employers/customers.Ultimately went self-employed over 30 years ago....no manager dictates to me
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Yup, cockney steve, has got it right...in spades.
Die-hard ALPA/APA guys are only trying to pi** into a hurricane...it just ain't going to work.
BALPA folks found out recently....wonder when ALPA/APA folks will wake up?
I can only laugh at their present antics.
Die-hard ALPA/APA guys are only trying to pi** into a hurricane...it just ain't going to work.
BALPA folks found out recently....wonder when ALPA/APA folks will wake up?
I can only laugh at their present antics.
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how embarrassing
how embarrassing, to use these two sentences in the same context
"On July 26, 2008 I was in command of United flight 895 from Chicago to Hong Kong"
"I explained to ******** that as long as we were not too fatigued to fly by the time we got fuel that we would waive duty time if the crew desk would drop our next IDs and pay protect us."
Clowns like this are the reason why we are treated as a necessary evil. Either you can fly the aircraft safely or not...end of story.
"On July 26, 2008 I was in command of United flight 895 from Chicago to Hong Kong"
"I explained to ******** that as long as we were not too fatigued to fly by the time we got fuel that we would waive duty time if the crew desk would drop our next IDs and pay protect us."
Clowns like this are the reason why we are treated as a necessary evil. Either you can fly the aircraft safely or not...end of story.