Pilot Letter about UAL MGMT (get ready for a long read...), UAL 895..7/26/08

[Huck]

he said it was his first trip over there, I think.

Obviously....

I cannot abide this desperate need for approval from lackeys back home. Make your decisions, cope with the scene onsite, go to the hotel. Who gives a **** if crew skeds has an attitude? And if you're in crew rest - disconnect your in-room phone and sleep. Call skeds in 12 hours. No requirement to field phone calls in your room.....

Captains make more money than anybody in the company except for upper management and the executives. Don't expect to make friends when you're making hard decisions.

[411A]

I cannot abide this desperate need for approval from lackeys back home. Make your decisions, cope with the scene onsite, go to the hotel. Who gives a **** if crew skeds has an attitude? And if you're in crew rest - disconnect your in-room phone and sleep. Call skeds in 12 hours. No requirement to field phone calls in your room.....

Captains make more money than anybody in the company except for upper management and the executives. Don't expect to make friends when you're making hard decisions.

Yup, 'tis a fact.
I do believe that the concerned Captain was just trying to make a 'statement'....and he failed, in spades.

Or, as I would prefer....an malcontent, not worthy of the position in the LHS.

[PAXboy]

Capot

But if I were running UAL, I would sack those who fought him over that issue so stupidly.

Indeed but, when considering human nature (and having been in commercial employment for 30 years in various industries) it appears the folks back home who treated the crew and pax so badly - thought that was what their mgmt wanted. They would not have been working on a whim, they would be carrying out instructions that had been used before and that their only interest was to win on their terms, irrespective of the human beings that had paid for their flight to be safe and their fellow employees.

DingerX

The only time to negotiate from the flight deck is when a Hostage Rescue Team is en route.

On the other hand, it may be said that the modern Captain is trained to negotiate at every turn, so as to gain the best outcome for all concerned? May be and May be not.


Whatever the detail, this airline sounds like it needs Gordon Bethune to 'do a Continental' on it.

[captjns]

Its amazing how unfatigued a crew can become when the deal $$$$$$$ is right!

Either you're too tired to fly or not! By the way were the available hotels in MACAU ALPA approved? If not sleep on the airport bench??? provided they are ALPA approved too.

[411A]

Its amazing how unfatigued a crew can become when the deal $$$$$$$ is right!

Exactly my point, captjns, primadonnas of the highest order.

[speech]

First Officer****not only went out to supervise but actually did the fueling. Without the actions and knowledge of First Officer **** the aircraft would not have been fueled.

While I liked the ALPA approved ferry boat very much, that one was my favorite. OMG You mean he actually had to get out of the cockpit to supervise refueling. Maybe it was even raining and he got wet...

And then they wonder why we don't roll the red carpet for them in business aviation

It's actually more sad than funny.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Isn't it a good feeling to belong to strong union oriented airline?

Muppets.

[captjns]

Kind of surprised to see this thread was not originated on Airline Pilot Central. But then there probably would not be too much sympathy to those UAL lads.

I must say I was riveted to my screen about the issue with the fuel slip and the fact that the F/O had to supervise the fueling of his jet. Call in the union facilitators, for I can see some type of post traumatic in the wings.

[vapilot2004]

Firstly, two points possibly misunderstood here:
Contractual duty time is an entirely different animal than regulated duty time. The conversations between OPS and the flight deck crew were about the former.

Comments about the FO and refueling:
In Cap. Kravit's letter, he clearly states that the FO actually performed the refuel and did not just 'supervise.' The point is moot anyway.

Now to understanding the position this Captain was in from my point of view:

After having been manipulated and toyed with regarding hotels, transportation and duty times, I cannot blame this UAL Captains attitude towards the ground-dwelling management muppets. OPS bozos blocked each and every attempt of this mans quest for rest for himself and crew.

The offer of five hours pay was laughable when you consider that after the hairy arrival and hours on the ground in the aircraft, they would have had to resume their roster duties for a song. The crew was being cheated out of a well-deserved rest period that was contractually valid. The trip-drop offer should have been an amenable end to the impasse.

When you look at how UAL and other domestic airlines have basically cherry picked their pilots unions spoils under the guise of restructuring, the frustration of this pilot should be understood, especially by anyone in the business that has felt the pain of loss of hard-won contract points while management wizz home after their eight hours with benefits and bonuses intact and still flowing freely from the company coffers.

Finally, the 'unapproved' ferry comment may be laughable to some from the warmth and safety of their homes, but can you picture yourself and fellow crew huddled together with their bags en masse on a public transport in this (and I hate the term) post 9.11 world? Let's be real here and know that not all union rules are for mere comfort and convenience. The forced ride was OPS way of adding further insult to injury here.

[FrequentSLF]

Vapilot2004

Contractual duty time is an entirely different animal than regulated duty time. The conversations between OPS and the flight deck crew were about the former.

Point taken, therefore the Captain was only interested on what could have been his own benefit. He was not looking after the PAX. I can understand that he was looking at his own perosnal benefit, pitty that he blamed the managment for the PAX suffering, while he was also a factor in the equation.

The offer of five hours pay was laughable when you consider that after the hairy arrival and hours on the ground in the aircraft

Why it was a hairy arrival?

Finally, the 'unapproved' ferry comment may be laughable to some from the warmth and safety of their homes, but can you picture yourself and fellow crew huddled together with their bags en masse on a public transport in this (and I hate the term) post 9.11 world? Let's be real here and know that not all union rules are for mere comfort and convenience. The forced ride was OPS way of adding further insult to injury here.

Please read my previous post about the ferries.
Why the helipcter services would have been OK?

AN

[411A]

....but can you picture yourself and fellow crew huddled together with their bags en masse on a public transport...

Yeah, boozing it up in one of the suites.
Oh, the unfairness of it all....

Primadonnas again.

[vapilot2004]

Please read my previous post about the ferries.
Why the helipcter services would have been OK?

Mr AN, I agree the ferry was not the real point and Cap knew it but had
reasons for his objections fully sustained in the rule book anyway.
The point was the impotent pencil pushers were playing silly and
small-minded power games from their tiny desks to the very end.

They attempted to maneuver the man and his crew into a corner
and as a final jab to their dignity as 'valued' employees, forced them
to leave the place by boat when a perfectly serviceable helo
was available and not completely out of line in cost.
I believe that his complaint on this point was the principal
involved and not the particular mode of transport.

[ShortfinalFred]

More armchair quaterbacking from 411a allied to his preachey hatred of any unionised workforce. If I read him a'right then its OK for the company to screw the workforce on every element of the compensation and work contract, but woe betide the serfs if they ever do anything other than roll over and offer back more.

There's certainly a good lesson here - dont negotiate - leave the company with the passengers - go to the hotel and take legal rest. If you are fatigued, thats the end of the debate. Frankly, if you do anything else you are open to a law suit anyway. One touch of a wingtip when taxying and your career is most likely over. Its obvious - there is no debate.

Dont do their lying for them either - let the station manager or designated handling agent come up with a pack of bullcr*p about "no hotels". As to positioning back to HK - do you as a responsible Commander in a post 9/11 world place a crew of perhaps 18 to 20 plus American Citizens in uniform on what amounts to a public bus, presumably prior to being asked to operate? Note the tragedy of an American Citizen knifed to death at the Olympics by a random member of the Chinese public. I would be very hesitant to do that as a Commander with a duty of care to my crew.

And 411a's standard retort - all Captains are "prima donnas". I dispair, which is presumably what 411a wants. Are you a schizophrenic 411a, that you participate (presumably) in an industry where you hold such contempt for the participants? I suggest that there is something seriously wrong with your need to undermine and or attack "fellow professionals", (and I am assuming here that you do still fly in command on a large public transport aeroplane on international routes - hence the quote marks around my use of the term "fellow professionals"). If a Captain does anything other than roll over and accept an endless degradation of the terms of his career he's a "prima donna" - doubtless you like your serfs nice and compliant? I think you have an agenda fulled by a hatred of ALPA and a new-found sense that management's compensation package can be enhanced only by screwing over their "fellow professionals" on the line, (and I now use the quotes for irony), at each and every turn. I think this agenda colours everything you write and devalues it accordingly.

[vapilot2004]

Apologies for my late response to this other fair point you have put out here for discussion, AN.

Point taken, therefore the Captain was only interested on what could have been his own benefit. He was not looking after the PAX. I can understand that he was looking at his own perosnal benefit, pitty that he blamed the managment for the PAX suffering, while he was also a factor in the equation.

The inconveniences to the passengers, in order of root cause would have been number one, the weather, followed by some inflexible company pinheads 12Km to their west and then the local airport authority for hindering both disembarkation and any re-bookings. The flight deck crews choices were not in the top three on my take of that afternoon, evening and late nights malaise.

Even if the Captain and crew had decided to turn the aircraft themselves
after the fueling was finally accomplished some five or more hours in, the time saved for passengers in my best estimation would have been under two hours.

Meanwhile, the entire crew would have been on duty for practically one solar day with no reasonable amount of rest nor compensation in sight for their efforts.

[FrequentSLF]

vapilot2004,

I agree with your evaluation but note this sentence from the letter

Once again, after an hour, I requested (almost begged) OPB to accept our offer and suggestion to drop our trips and let us get the airplane and passengers to Hong Kong. The entire ordeal could have been over in another thirty minutes as the fueler was enroute. The response was an abrupt, “No!”

I understand that he was ready to fly the aircraft to HKG. This was after the weather delay. But since his "offer" was not accepted he did not waived his duty time. I estimated that happend before 19.00 (L).

In response to another post. For most nationals (including USA citizens) Macau does not required entry Visa for stay up to 30 days (no return ticket required).

Cheers
AN

[411A]

And 411a's standard retort - all Captains are "prima donnas". I dispair, which is presumably what 411a wants.

No, Fred, not all Captains, just a few.
Sadly, these folks make far more waves than they are entitled to, and paint all of the rest with the same broad brush.

And yes (to answer your question), still in Command of a large public transport wide-body jet aircraft.

[WindSheer]

As usual the 'pen pushers' fail to appreciate the insecurity and emotion associated with being so far from home, whilst exhausted on a dark blustery night. This alone is pressure enough to deal with, without recieving added pressure from a complete team of clowns in a warm comfy room close to home.

Absolute joke!!

[PAXboy]

Irrespective of who was right and who was wrong (and it was probably in the middle somewhere as most human disputes are) I think that the folks in the office could benefit by accompanying a crew for a tour of duty and the flight crew could benefit from sitting alongside the desk crew for a week.

If people in a company start to understand the jobs of those on either side of them in the supply chain - then the company will work better. The larger a company gets, the further apart the components become. Eventually, they cannot hold together and the chain gives way. This letter describes a chain at breaking point.

[411A]

Now THAT's a prima donna Captain.

Sorry, Dan, it most definitely is not.
It is the chain of command, working as it should.
The chairman of the company I work for calls the tune about where we fly, what hotac is provided, what transport is used to/from the airport and, askes my advice about operational matters.
He does not determine how much fuel I uplift, whether I need a tech stop (or not) for the route to be flown, does not provide licensed dispatchers (we do this ourselves) and the contracted handling service files the flight plan and provides the weather, notams, and passenger/baggage arrangements.

In short, no interferance from the head shed, and we, the FD crew, determine whether we operate in accordance with mandated regulations, including flight duty times.
That is what we are paid to do....not tell the company about magagement areas.

The UAL Captain in question was just making excuses.
If he and his crew were out of duty time, it's off to hotac.
As it should be.
Further, the said UAL Captain was only trying to bargin for a better deal, and in fact, was not looking after his passengers in a reasonable and prudent manner, by trying to bargin to drop trips in order to extend his flight duty period.

A typical ALPA dimwit.

[Huck]

If people in a company start to understand the jobs of those on either side of them in the supply chain - then the company will work better.

I'm told that newhire pilots at UPS spend a day riding in one of their delivery vans.....