BA038 Crew get BA safety Medal
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As a Training Captain, we get to fly with all sorts of people. Just had a flight with an AAIB Inspector in the other seat. Among numerous other discussions that day, a fascinating chat ensued about BA038 and who was to blame etc. The AAIB pilot was absolutely clear that no blame whatsoever could or should be attached to the pilots. Their view is that by an astonishing stroke of good fortune the engines did not pack up a few minutes earlier with potentially catastrophic consequences for all on board, plus numerous innocent people on the ground. The pilots were considered to have been faced with an impossible situation which, despite a very long flight and little or no notice, they handled very well. This was a combination of unusual in-flight conditions and a little-understood engineering issue. The AAIB pilot said that they believed these conditions have probably appeared on several previous occasions, but environmental circumstances prevented the engines losing power to the extent experienced here. They also recognised that, having reached this unenviable position, 19 times out of 20 it would normally result in disaster. I personally am delighted that a degree of good fortune and a massive amount of airmanship prevented disaster that day. Our industry's hardest and most unforgiving professionals, the AAIB, agree - that is good enough for me.
And for what its worth - I am one who is exposed to significant numbers of people who revel in fleecing the social security system. I am therefore delighted that Mmmayday38 is able to recoup a tiny portion of his significant payments into the pot - it makes a very pleasant change to the pile of complete losers and thieves who are bleeding the country dry.
And for what its worth - I am one who is exposed to significant numbers of people who revel in fleecing the social security system. I am therefore delighted that Mmmayday38 is able to recoup a tiny portion of his significant payments into the pot - it makes a very pleasant change to the pile of complete losers and thieves who are bleeding the country dry.
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Yeah!!...38 and the entire crew can hold their heads up high for the rest of their lives. I hope they realise that that is the opinion of all the true professionals on this website! 
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It's amazing to see the vast difference between different societies responses to incidents that are not that dissimilar. Below is an account (from Wikkipedia) of the US airways ditching in the Hudson and the aftermarth for Captain Sullenberger and how the USA celebrated this fine airmen on multiple fronts. In contrast, how different Captain Burkill and his First officiers (The UK's just as fine airmen) have been treated, yet they got their passengers and felow crew down safely as well.
Maybe this is a society thing and maybe there is an atribution bias involved, as the media images of the BA777, crashed and badly dented look quite different to that of an intact A320 floating calmly on the river with people on the wings. Yet, both aircraft experienced very similar problems - double engine outs. But, the BA crew experienced it at a lot lower altitude and had a lot less time to react. Under those circumstances they did just as good job as the US crew, yet the recognition is vastly different? Just some food for thought
On January 15, 2009, Sullenberger was pilot in command of an Airbus A320 from New York's LaGuardia Airport to Charlotte/Douglas International Airport in Charlotte, North Carolina. The flight was designated as US Airways Flight 1549 as well as United Airlines Flight 1919.[24] Shortly after taking off, Sullenberger reported to air traffic control (ATC) that the plane had hit a large flock of birds, disabling both engines.[25] Several passengers saw the left engine on fire.[26] Sullenberger discussed with ATC the possibilities of either returning to LaGuardia or attempting to land at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey. However, he quickly decided neither was feasible, and determined to ditch in the Hudson River.[27] Sullenberger told the passengers to "brace for impact", then piloted the plane to a smooth ditching in the river at about 3:31 P.M.[28] All passengers and crew members survived.[28] He later said, "It was very quiet as we worked, my co-pilot and I. We were a team. But to have zero thrust coming out of those engines was shocking—the silence."[29] Sullenberger checked the passenger cabin twice to make sure everyone had evacuated, before retrieving the plane's maintenance logbook and being the last to evacuate the aircraft.[8][30]
Sullenberger, described by friends as "shy and reticent",[31] has been noted for his poise and calm demeanor during the crisis. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, for example, dubbed him, "Captain Cool".[32] However, Sullenberger acknowledged that he had suffered some symptoms of posttraumatic stress for the first couple of weeks following the crash, including sleeplessness and flashbacks, though this condition had improved by the time of his late February 2009 interview with People magazine.[33] In a CBS 60 Minutes interview, he was quoted as saying that the moments before the crash were "the worst sickening, pit-of-your-stomach, falling-through-the-floor feeling" that he had ever experienced.[34] Speaking with news anchor Katie Couric, Sullenberger said, "One way of looking at this might be that for 42 years, I've been making small, regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training. And on January 15 the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."[35]
U.S. President George W. Bush called Sullenberger to thank him for saving the lives of the passengers,[36] as did President-elect Barack Obama[37] who also invited him to join the presidential inauguration ceremony.[38] On January 16, 2009, the United States Senate passed a Congressional resolution to recognize and honor Sullenberger, co-pilot Jeff Skiles, the crew, passengers and first responders to Flight 1549's emergency landing.[39] The United States House of Representatives passed a similar resolution on January 26, 2009.[40]
Sullenberger attended the inauguration of Barack Obama, where he and his wife met President Obama.[33] On January 22, 2009, Sullenberger, along with the rest of the crew of Flight 1549, was awarded a Masters Medal by the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators.[41] A ceremony for Sullenberger was held on January 24, 2009, in his hometown of Danville, California, where he was presented with awards including Danville's "Key to the Town",[31] and was named an honorary Danville police officer.[42] San Ramon Valley Fire Protection District Chief Richard Price presented the Captain with the district's highest award, the Medal of Valor,[43] which has been given only a few times in the district's history.[44] Sullenberger, Skiles, and Flight 1549's cabin crew, Doreen Walsh, Sheila Dail and Donna Dent, were honored with a standing ovation during the Super Bowl XLIII pre-game on February 1, 2009.[45] Sullenberger has also been awarded with honorary lifetime membership in The Seaplane Pilot's Association.[46][47] Admirers of Sullenberger started a Facebook fan site that, as of late February 2009, had half a million members.[33]
A few weeks after the crash, it was revealed that Sullenberger had lost a library book about professional ethics, Just Culture: Balancing Safety and Accountability, in the plane's cargo hold. When he called the library to notify them of the lost book, they waived the usual fees. Mayor Bloomberg replaced the book when giving Sullenberger the Key to the City.[48][49]
Sullenberger threw out the first pitch of the 2009 Major League Baseball season for the San Francisco Giants. His Giants jersey was inscribed with the name "Sully" and the number 155 - a reference to the 155 people aboard the flight.[50]
On June 6, 2009, Sullenberger returned to his hometown of Denison, Texas to participate in two events: the city's D-Day celebration, and to give the commencement address for his alma mater, Denison High School marking the 40th anniversary of his own graduation from Denison High.[51]
He also made an appearance in St. Louis on July 14, 2009, participating in the Red Carpet All-Star parade that took place before the 2009 Major League Baseball All-Star Game.
Which incident was more media friendly? yet, both sets of people survived.. (and I wonder if a British library would have waivered a fine for Peter??
)
Maybe this is a society thing and maybe there is an atribution bias involved, as the media images of the BA777, crashed and badly dented look quite different to that of an intact A320 floating calmly on the river with people on the wings. Yet, both aircraft experienced very similar problems - double engine outs. But, the BA crew experienced it at a lot lower altitude and had a lot less time to react. Under those circumstances they did just as good job as the US crew, yet the recognition is vastly different? Just some food for thought
On January 15, 2009, Sullenberger was pilot in command of an Airbus A320 from New York's LaGuardia Airport to Charlotte/Douglas International Airport in Charlotte, North Carolina. The flight was designated as US Airways Flight 1549 as well as United Airlines Flight 1919.[24] Shortly after taking off, Sullenberger reported to air traffic control (ATC) that the plane had hit a large flock of birds, disabling both engines.[25] Several passengers saw the left engine on fire.[26] Sullenberger discussed with ATC the possibilities of either returning to LaGuardia or attempting to land at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey. However, he quickly decided neither was feasible, and determined to ditch in the Hudson River.[27] Sullenberger told the passengers to "brace for impact", then piloted the plane to a smooth ditching in the river at about 3:31 P.M.[28] All passengers and crew members survived.[28] He later said, "It was very quiet as we worked, my co-pilot and I. We were a team. But to have zero thrust coming out of those engines was shocking—the silence."[29] Sullenberger checked the passenger cabin twice to make sure everyone had evacuated, before retrieving the plane's maintenance logbook and being the last to evacuate the aircraft.[8][30]
Sullenberger, described by friends as "shy and reticent",[31] has been noted for his poise and calm demeanor during the crisis. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, for example, dubbed him, "Captain Cool".[32] However, Sullenberger acknowledged that he had suffered some symptoms of posttraumatic stress for the first couple of weeks following the crash, including sleeplessness and flashbacks, though this condition had improved by the time of his late February 2009 interview with People magazine.[33] In a CBS 60 Minutes interview, he was quoted as saying that the moments before the crash were "the worst sickening, pit-of-your-stomach, falling-through-the-floor feeling" that he had ever experienced.[34] Speaking with news anchor Katie Couric, Sullenberger said, "One way of looking at this might be that for 42 years, I've been making small, regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training. And on January 15 the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."[35]
U.S. President George W. Bush called Sullenberger to thank him for saving the lives of the passengers,[36] as did President-elect Barack Obama[37] who also invited him to join the presidential inauguration ceremony.[38] On January 16, 2009, the United States Senate passed a Congressional resolution to recognize and honor Sullenberger, co-pilot Jeff Skiles, the crew, passengers and first responders to Flight 1549's emergency landing.[39] The United States House of Representatives passed a similar resolution on January 26, 2009.[40]
Sullenberger attended the inauguration of Barack Obama, where he and his wife met President Obama.[33] On January 22, 2009, Sullenberger, along with the rest of the crew of Flight 1549, was awarded a Masters Medal by the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators.[41] A ceremony for Sullenberger was held on January 24, 2009, in his hometown of Danville, California, where he was presented with awards including Danville's "Key to the Town",[31] and was named an honorary Danville police officer.[42] San Ramon Valley Fire Protection District Chief Richard Price presented the Captain with the district's highest award, the Medal of Valor,[43] which has been given only a few times in the district's history.[44] Sullenberger, Skiles, and Flight 1549's cabin crew, Doreen Walsh, Sheila Dail and Donna Dent, were honored with a standing ovation during the Super Bowl XLIII pre-game on February 1, 2009.[45] Sullenberger has also been awarded with honorary lifetime membership in The Seaplane Pilot's Association.[46][47] Admirers of Sullenberger started a Facebook fan site that, as of late February 2009, had half a million members.[33]
A few weeks after the crash, it was revealed that Sullenberger had lost a library book about professional ethics, Just Culture: Balancing Safety and Accountability, in the plane's cargo hold. When he called the library to notify them of the lost book, they waived the usual fees. Mayor Bloomberg replaced the book when giving Sullenberger the Key to the City.[48][49]
Sullenberger threw out the first pitch of the 2009 Major League Baseball season for the San Francisco Giants. His Giants jersey was inscribed with the name "Sully" and the number 155 - a reference to the 155 people aboard the flight.[50]
On June 6, 2009, Sullenberger returned to his hometown of Denison, Texas to participate in two events: the city's D-Day celebration, and to give the commencement address for his alma mater, Denison High School marking the 40th anniversary of his own graduation from Denison High.[51]
He also made an appearance in St. Louis on July 14, 2009, participating in the Red Carpet All-Star parade that took place before the 2009 Major League Baseball All-Star Game.
Which incident was more media friendly? yet, both sets of people survived.. (and I wonder if a British library would have waivered a fine for Peter??
)
Last edited by juniour jetset; 27th Oct 2009 at 09:46.
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It's amazing to see the vast difference between different societies responses to incidents that are not that dissimilar.
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Sully Vs BA 777
Sully actually flew this thing and made some decisions. The autopilot deserves the medal on BA 777. That is not knocking the BA crew, just different circumstances.
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You know nothing. How arrogant to come here and make such a statement!
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SFLY wrote:
That is a ridiculous analogy to try to make!
There is a world of difference landing on water vs on land, where the runway to land/splash down on is 10 miles long by 2 miles wide and you have a choice of touchdown point and speed and the situation at LHR where there were houses, a petrol station, tube station and a major dual carriageway in the undershoot to the undershoot of the runway!
Two very different scenarios that shared one thing in common - excellent and prioritised decision making and cockpit actions from very competent professional crews that resulted in no fatalities. Jobs well done
If the BA038 had ditched the way it "landed" I'm not sure the aircraft would be calmly floating.
There is a world of difference landing on water vs on land, where the runway to land/splash down on is 10 miles long by 2 miles wide and you have a choice of touchdown point and speed and the situation at LHR where there were houses, a petrol station, tube station and a major dual carriageway in the undershoot to the undershoot of the runway!
Two very different scenarios that shared one thing in common - excellent and prioritised decision making and cockpit actions from very competent professional crews that resulted in no fatalities. Jobs well done
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excellent and prioritised decision making and cockpit actions from very competent professional crews
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S.F.L.Y
Whatever cockpit actions (or inactions) occurred during this incident, it is virtually impossible to conceive of a more successful outcome. Wouldn't you agree? Their flying was 'bang on'.
Any delay to the publication of the report, has far more to do with the subsequent technical determination of cause, than your implied 'cover up' of the crew's actions!
Perhaps it is exactly this kind of implied criticism ("AP trying...blah, blah, until stall" blah, blah..etc.) with the luxury of complete ignorance, that is precisely the kind of societal differences to which 'juniour jetset' refers?
It strikes me as being rather pathetic to be honest.
Whatever cockpit actions (or inactions) occurred during this incident, it is virtually impossible to conceive of a more successful outcome. Wouldn't you agree? Their flying was 'bang on'.
Any delay to the publication of the report, has far more to do with the subsequent technical determination of cause, than your implied 'cover up' of the crew's actions!
Perhaps it is exactly this kind of implied criticism ("AP trying...blah, blah, until stall" blah, blah..etc.) with the luxury of complete ignorance, that is precisely the kind of societal differences to which 'juniour jetset' refers?
It strikes me as being rather pathetic to be honest.
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 27th Oct 2009 at 14:46.
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Whatever cockpit actions (or inactions) occurred during this incident
The Turkish 737 in AMS emphasize similar consequences on low speed under AP.
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As the autopilot attempted to maintain the aircraft on the ILS glideslope the airspeed reduced and by 200 ft had reached 108 kt. The stick shaker activated at approximately 170 ft.
This from the AAIB.
Somebody needs to fly his rainbow flag proudly, just like I will go back to my little DA50.
This from the AAIB.
Somebody needs to fly his rainbow flag proudly, just like I will go back to my little DA50.
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Ok SFLY and DA50, tell us what you would have done?
Lowered the nose to fly and Vref and crash short into the aforementioned houses, petrol station, tube station and dual carriageway? What options do you think they hadwhen the engines failed to respond at 2nm final?
There is difference to the AMS TY crash, the TY crew appeared to have lost SA - something that neither the Hudson nor the LHR crews did - they extracted the best performance available to them and saved lives.
I'm sorry but if you don't see that, you shouldn't be anywhere near an aircraft controls.
Lowered the nose to fly and Vref and crash short into the aforementioned houses, petrol station, tube station and dual carriageway? What options do you think they hadwhen the engines failed to respond at 2nm final?
There is difference to the AMS TY crash, the TY crew appeared to have lost SA - something that neither the Hudson nor the LHR crews did - they extracted the best performance available to them and saved lives.
I'm sorry but if you don't see that, you shouldn't be anywhere near an aircraft controls.
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I haven't said I would do anything different, I am just pointing out that the AP did a fantastic job down to 170' and 108 knots. Therein lies the difference. One crew had no time, dealt with what they had coming and got very lucky. That is taking nothing away from them at all. The other crew had time to make decisions, and made all the right ones under the circumstances.
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I haven't said I would do anything different
Is that the main thrust of your argument?
As has been said earlier, the BA crew were not feted in the same way as their US colleagues. Parading at the Superbowl etc. It's simply not the British way.
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SFLY and DA50 - one of the major differences you seem to gloss over is the fact that the time to react and carry out actions was much different in the two incidents.
BA038 had minimal time and was only going one way - down, quickly, from a very low height. Very little opportunity to move in the lateral plane. If the aircraft hadn't been established, chances were it would have creamed in despite efforts from the crew.
The crew had very little time to do or say anything other than what they did.
Capt Sully, ISTR, had a hell of a lot more time to make a decision - and tell people about it.
Both crews did exceptionally well, with a lot of luck and fortune thrown in (availability of the Hudson for Sully and the large number of vessels able to effect a quick rescue, and the fact that BA038 was was established and pretty well set up for landing).
Both crews deserve praise, to try to say one crew did better than the other is complete tosh, the two incidents are incomparable.
BA038 had minimal time and was only going one way - down, quickly, from a very low height. Very little opportunity to move in the lateral plane. If the aircraft hadn't been established, chances were it would have creamed in despite efforts from the crew.
The crew had very little time to do or say anything other than what they did.
Capt Sully, ISTR, had a hell of a lot more time to make a decision - and tell people about it.
Both crews did exceptionally well, with a lot of luck and fortune thrown in (availability of the Hudson for Sully and the large number of vessels able to effect a quick rescue, and the fact that BA038 was was established and pretty well set up for landing).
Both crews deserve praise, to try to say one crew did better than the other is complete tosh, the two incidents are incomparable.
Last edited by anotherthing; 27th Oct 2009 at 17:32.