BALPA withdraw from Open Skies Court Case
Controversial, moi?
The day the the BA pilots decided that it was OK to shaft the new hires in terms of Pension the writing was on the wall. Once the stone was allowed to start that roll downhill you could not stop it.
Presumably new joiners read their offered contracts? So we would have been asked to go on strike to force BA to put new joiners into the FSS scheme when they were happily signing up to the BARP scheme. I know from the way BALPA now collects research data from the members the whole issue was, unfortunately, a non-starter. Many were vociferous in their calls for a ballot and, long term, they may well be proved right.
In the end if BALPA did not have the funds to fight the action, why did the BA pilots not reach into those deep pockets and put up the funds ? Why blame Balpa, its your union and if its not doing what you want change it !
We, the members, are currently waiting for the full explanation of events which cannot be made until after BA either drops or completes its current legal manouevres aimed at bankrupting the union. BALPA is being sued for the damage caused to BA's reputation and business by the strike ballot.
BA's reputation is of course at an all time high!
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During pension negotiations the BACC told us (the members) that we could not strike over the issue of new joiners being excluded from the FSS until BA recruited a pilot on that scheme. This happened two years later. So a ballot of 3,500 pilots asking will you go on strike to force BA to put new joiners on the closed FSS would have been a foregone conclusion? The scheme was closed to all other new BA employees too so another can of worms there.
Regardless of your exact opinion on the outcome of that issue, and its effect on the long-term, it point to exactly the reason why modern unions are useless in workforce protection - it is only ever useful to aid the workforce in place at that time in an employer, and of no use whatsoever to those who have yet to join a workforce. A union contributes nothing to expansion of employment and is not incentivised to do so.
While you argue that it is the choice of those new recruits to join, and the conditions are clear, that is not relevant. The workforce at the time made no effort to prevent the B-scale arising, thereby diminishing the size of the pie for those joining in the future, for their benefit alone. To follow the argument through to its logical conclusion, one could say that since Victorian mills' working conditions were known to all and people still sought employment there, why should conditions change? That is contrary to the foundations of unionisation in the first place, but is the core of what you suggested regarding the pension issue.
BALPA does have a place - it should be involved in safety issues, supporting those in legal wrangles with their employers, and preventing the company from infringing on the ability of the commander to undertake his duties.
As I have argued many times in the past, the seniority system is to the detriment of the employee, prevents mobility, and depresses employee wages in the long-term. Younger employees, who will not have their turn, who will not attain the same pay scales where they have had to move employer through necessity, who work on below-market pay points, and who do not benefit from DB schemes - those people will one day refuse to support the elder employees when management turns its focus on them, by virtue of their inaction in the past.
Mistrust in Management
Mouse
BALPA is being sued for the damage caused to BA's reputation and business by the strike ballot.
If BA suceed in financially breaking BALPA I would imagine the whole affair might end up as an 'own goal' as employee/management relations drop to an all time low in all departments.
Mybe Mr Walsh could consider bringing back 'People in Business' to try and sort out the mess that will follow.
Regards
Exeng
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Sadly Mr Walsh couldn't give a frying flock what we think of him and the company. He has a gun to our heads now and will stop at nothing till he's smashed the pilot workforce, our terms and conditions, pensions, livelihoods and morale.
I was one of those who spoke out passionately at the time of the closure of NAPS. I was rebuked by the very people who are our achilles heel - 'Stop moaning boy, you'll be alright in the end, I'm in APS anyway'. I genuinely believe that we've made enormous progress at taking these people behind the bike sheds to explain the harsh realities of life in new-BA.
That legacy sadly though remains with us for the duration now. From the closure of NAPS to the clumsy neglect of Schedule K, we have now sustained serious battle damage. We must now dig in and regroup to ensure that the next time that BA ram raids our profession, we are ready and waiting with all assets in place.
'Industrial relations' as we laughingly call them in BA have now taken on a new and sinister guise. We will spend the future on the brink of nuclear war with two mutually distrustful and polarised camps. This isn't what any of us want, except for the greedy, avaricious, and morally bankrupt management of BA who want nothing else that to have a subjugate workforce of mindless compliant automatons.
What a desparately sad state of affairs.
I was one of those who spoke out passionately at the time of the closure of NAPS. I was rebuked by the very people who are our achilles heel - 'Stop moaning boy, you'll be alright in the end, I'm in APS anyway'. I genuinely believe that we've made enormous progress at taking these people behind the bike sheds to explain the harsh realities of life in new-BA.
That legacy sadly though remains with us for the duration now. From the closure of NAPS to the clumsy neglect of Schedule K, we have now sustained serious battle damage. We must now dig in and regroup to ensure that the next time that BA ram raids our profession, we are ready and waiting with all assets in place.
'Industrial relations' as we laughingly call them in BA have now taken on a new and sinister guise. We will spend the future on the brink of nuclear war with two mutually distrustful and polarised camps. This isn't what any of us want, except for the greedy, avaricious, and morally bankrupt management of BA who want nothing else that to have a subjugate workforce of mindless compliant automatons.
What a desparately sad state of affairs.
the lunatic fringe
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"British Airways withdraws counterclaim"
British Airways has now had time to consider whether to proceed with its Counterclaim in the High Court action brought against the Company by BALPA. Having looked carefully at the undertakings given to the Court by BALPA, in particular that it will not call industrial action based on similar issues, we are satisfied that these undertakings sufficiently cover the issues in the Counterclaim.
Source is teh BA Intranet
British Airways has now had time to consider whether to proceed with its Counterclaim in the High Court action brought against the Company by BALPA. Having looked carefully at the undertakings given to the Court by BALPA, in particular that it will not call industrial action based on similar issues, we are satisfied that these undertakings sufficiently cover the issues in the Counterclaim.
Source is teh BA Intranet
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So the question now is ...........exactly what amount of money did this little exercise cost Balpa and how competent was the legal advice they had in the first place?
This is a humiliating climb down and no amount of lobbying for change alters the fact that Balpa and all those who had whipped themselves up into a self righteous frenzy have been made to look like a bunch of ill advised amateurs.
I trust that those in Balpa who have overseen this humiliation pay with their jobs.
This is a humiliating climb down and no amount of lobbying for change alters the fact that Balpa and all those who had whipped themselves up into a self righteous frenzy have been made to look like a bunch of ill advised amateurs.
I trust that those in Balpa who have overseen this humiliation pay with their jobs.
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Many many wise words have you uttered down the years Tim, and few more than that last post.
(Some may feel the whole exercise was worth it if only to apparently silence Hand Solo and his ilk!)
More seriously though, as usual you make an exceptionally valid point: quite apart from the unquantifiable effects of the loss of credibility, just how much real money has this ridiculous posturing cost us?
As for paying with their jobs, there is no responsibility ever taken by those in positions of responsibility any more......unless you're a pilot.....
(Some may feel the whole exercise was worth it if only to apparently silence Hand Solo and his ilk!)
More seriously though, as usual you make an exceptionally valid point: quite apart from the unquantifiable effects of the loss of credibility, just how much real money has this ridiculous posturing cost us?
As for paying with their jobs, there is no responsibility ever taken by those in positions of responsibility any more......unless you're a pilot.....
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Devillish has some excellent arguments. Fancy being the next BACC Chairman?
The industrial-relations of the aviation industry are drastically out of date. BALPA has followed a disasterous strategy. New faces and a new direction is needed. To those BALPA reps currently up for election, you have the chance to make a difference
As a freshed faced youngster, I want BALPA to start discussing how to create a mobile workforce by migrating (i.e. not overnight, thus protecting those nearer the top) away from a seniority based pay scheme that restricts you leaving if your T&Cs drop. If we had a free market of employment, the company would be forced to respect T&Cs or face pilot churn.
I want to see BALPA become more representative. Having read the recent ballot paper manifestos all I read was a bunch of whinges. Summarised: as BALPA good, BA evil. Life is slightly more complex than that. Not a single woman stood for election. Why isn't BALPA encouraging female pilots to stand?
BALPA in its present incarnation is the status-quo. I want to see my union less like Arthur Scargill and more like the union model now adopted in say the car industry.
BA must change too. Willie get with the programme. I have 3 bits of advice for you;
1. Stop chasing BALPA for costs and get on with running and improving our airline. It makes you look petty and vindictive.
2. Concentrate everyone's mind on the little things like getting buses and equipment to stands. Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves. Costs will tumble if the system ran like clockwork. Bash heads together to make it happen but make it happen.
3. If you want a co-operative and consensual relationship with your workforce you need to change the management culture. The tone/ relationships/attitude of many middle managers only causes resentment amongst those of us trying to do our best for our customers. These people take their cues from you, so lead by example.
Having insulted all sides, I now need to go for a short lie down and then get back to flying planes. Bye.
The industrial-relations of the aviation industry are drastically out of date. BALPA has followed a disasterous strategy. New faces and a new direction is needed. To those BALPA reps currently up for election, you have the chance to make a difference
As a freshed faced youngster, I want BALPA to start discussing how to create a mobile workforce by migrating (i.e. not overnight, thus protecting those nearer the top) away from a seniority based pay scheme that restricts you leaving if your T&Cs drop. If we had a free market of employment, the company would be forced to respect T&Cs or face pilot churn.
I want to see BALPA become more representative. Having read the recent ballot paper manifestos all I read was a bunch of whinges. Summarised: as BALPA good, BA evil. Life is slightly more complex than that. Not a single woman stood for election. Why isn't BALPA encouraging female pilots to stand?
BALPA in its present incarnation is the status-quo. I want to see my union less like Arthur Scargill and more like the union model now adopted in say the car industry.
BA must change too. Willie get with the programme. I have 3 bits of advice for you;
1. Stop chasing BALPA for costs and get on with running and improving our airline. It makes you look petty and vindictive.
2. Concentrate everyone's mind on the little things like getting buses and equipment to stands. Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves. Costs will tumble if the system ran like clockwork. Bash heads together to make it happen but make it happen.
3. If you want a co-operative and consensual relationship with your workforce you need to change the management culture. The tone/ relationships/attitude of many middle managers only causes resentment amongst those of us trying to do our best for our customers. These people take their cues from you, so lead by example.
Having insulted all sides, I now need to go for a short lie down and then get back to flying planes. Bye.
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Lots of what you said there was dead good. I would argue with the comparison to the car industry, and sugest that what we actually want is something more akin to the General Medical Council or the Law Society - you don't often see THEIR members being manipulated or jerked around - quite the opposite. (And when they are, half the time it's revoked on appeal!!!
)
But I agree - Devillish for BALPA Chair!
Now, let's face it, the seniority system is not one that you would invent if starting from scratch. Problem is that it's there, we're here, and there are huge amounts of vested interest on both sides.
But really, would doctors accept such a ludicrous concept? Would lawyers? Would dentists? Would accountants? Would uni lecturers or teachers? Would scientists? Would civil servants? Would policemen? Would journalists? Would - (dare I say it) - the military?
So why should we; there's no reason why we shouldn't align ourselves more nearly with the other professional bodies with whom it suits us to compare ourselves. I can't imagine anyone who could argue with meritocratic principles, the ONLY real objection is the misuse we fear management may make of it -but look at the debacle BALPA have just caused by harping on what are fundamentally seniority and hence remuneration related issues.
We need a BALPA committee, (of more than just Big Airways), looking seriously at this issue, because the seniority system actively opposes and hinders the free movement of personnel. Further, if meritocratic principles took over, arguably we would be better placed to control more of our own destiny because seniority and experience would have fewer reservations about leaving a perceived 'safe' placement.
I don't suggest it's easy, but if you look at the professional bodies I mentioned earlier, they don't seem to have a problem with it, in fact it seems to work very well for them - I believe it could for us too!
Actually, this is probably thread creep. I may just cut and paste - waddaya think?
)But I agree - Devillish for BALPA Chair!
Now, let's face it, the seniority system is not one that you would invent if starting from scratch. Problem is that it's there, we're here, and there are huge amounts of vested interest on both sides.
But really, would doctors accept such a ludicrous concept? Would lawyers? Would dentists? Would accountants? Would uni lecturers or teachers? Would scientists? Would civil servants? Would policemen? Would journalists? Would - (dare I say it) - the military?
So why should we; there's no reason why we shouldn't align ourselves more nearly with the other professional bodies with whom it suits us to compare ourselves. I can't imagine anyone who could argue with meritocratic principles, the ONLY real objection is the misuse we fear management may make of it -but look at the debacle BALPA have just caused by harping on what are fundamentally seniority and hence remuneration related issues.
We need a BALPA committee, (of more than just Big Airways), looking seriously at this issue, because the seniority system actively opposes and hinders the free movement of personnel. Further, if meritocratic principles took over, arguably we would be better placed to control more of our own destiny because seniority and experience would have fewer reservations about leaving a perceived 'safe' placement.
I don't suggest it's easy, but if you look at the professional bodies I mentioned earlier, they don't seem to have a problem with it, in fact it seems to work very well for them - I believe it could for us too!
Actually, this is probably thread creep. I may just cut and paste - waddaya think?
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A bit off topic but I am wondering how recent events in BA have affected pilot morale.
First there was the disaster of T5.
Now BALPA members agreed to a strike but after some underhand misuse of a Euorpean law they have had to pull out due to cost.
WW must feel all very clever that he has pulled this magic rabbit out of a hat but it surely only causes worse relations between staff and management.
I am also going through dispute with management [although in IT industry] but I find it having a detrimental effect on my morale and motivation.
I would hate to think that pilots morale is so reduced that it causes issues with safety.
Do these problems begin to effect pilots carrying out their jobs?
First there was the disaster of T5.
Now BALPA members agreed to a strike but after some underhand misuse of a Euorpean law they have had to pull out due to cost.
WW must feel all very clever that he has pulled this magic rabbit out of a hat but it surely only causes worse relations between staff and management.
I am also going through dispute with management [although in IT industry] but I find it having a detrimental effect on my morale and motivation.
I would hate to think that pilots morale is so reduced that it causes issues with safety.
Do these problems begin to effect pilots carrying out their jobs?
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The relationship between BA and its pilots has deteriorated in the few years I have been with the company. In this time profits have swelled. At this point from my observation, the good will factor is gone.
Professional pilots will always put safety first regardless of morale. That being said the feeling of helping the company out and going the extra mile will be a thing of the past.
BA will want cost savings during the tough times ahead. They will need the support of their pilots as a pivotal role in doing so. I wish them the best of luck.
Professional pilots will always put safety first regardless of morale. That being said the feeling of helping the company out and going the extra mile will be a thing of the past.
BA will want cost savings during the tough times ahead. They will need the support of their pilots as a pivotal role in doing so. I wish them the best of luck.
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As a freshed faced youngster, I want BALPA to start discussing how to create a mobile workforce by migrating (i.e. not overnight, thus protecting those nearer the top) away from a seniority based pay scheme that restricts you leaving if your T&Cs drop.
But, in any case, if you would like to see what life is like with no seniority based pay increments, why not bid for secondment to Open Skies?
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They wouldn't have won anyway.
Those pilots at BA were so sure of themselves (as well as being slightly full of themselves...at least most of the ones who post here) that they apparently felt that 'they' were in control.
Now, they certainly are in control of the aeroplane while in operation, but that certainly does not transfer over to the company...and the management thereof.
For BALPA, no money, no honey (speaking here, honey coated conditions, etc).
Will they learn from the obvious BALPA mistakes?
Quite likely not, as has been proven time and again, in the past.
I can only laugh at their (collective) naivety.
Me too....the pilots probably would have got more respect from BA if they'd just walked out without a ballot.Seems to work for other groups of staff. What is potentially nasty is the legal precedent that has been set by this court case. I wonder about the law of unintended consequences.
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Excellent post 411A; my only difference of opinion would be that the sole emotion their - (BALPA and BA pilots) - chutzpah and punchy ill-informed decision making evokes is one of extreme irritation.
Fortunately, in my case, it remains at irritation: were I a fee paying BALPA member it would be anger at the loss of funds,the loss of face and the loss of credibility they have achieved. They have caused more real damage to UK pilot prospects than a dozen 'Open Skies' would have done, yet like quasi-politicians, none of them have the balls to admit they were in error both tactically and strategically.
Hence your last point is the most galling of all, doubtless they will repeat the exercise on a different battlefield, and actually, you're right, one has to laugh - otherwise one would cry!
Fortunately, in my case, it remains at irritation: were I a fee paying BALPA member it would be anger at the loss of funds,the loss of face and the loss of credibility they have achieved. They have caused more real damage to UK pilot prospects than a dozen 'Open Skies' would have done, yet like quasi-politicians, none of them have the balls to admit they were in error both tactically and strategically.
Hence your last point is the most galling of all, doubtless they will repeat the exercise on a different battlefield, and actually, you're right, one has to laugh - otherwise one would cry!