BALPA withdraw from Open Skies Court Case
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Overstress,
No particular axe to grind on this either way, but whilst this has been going on, there have been some very dismissive, triumphalist and somewhat, dare i say it "smug" postings on this topic from such as mentioned.
"BTW, BALPA is going to re-ballot the pilots once the strike is declared legal by the High Court"
Take it the re-balloting not happening then?
Personally i agree with you that it is another in a long line of victories for "big business", and can be traced back to the election victory of 1979, work ably continued by New Labour in it's obeisance to business interests. However I do find it hard to believe that many BA Balpa members would have been crying at the demise of the unions of all stripes, and most i imagine would have heartily applauded the laws that were brought in to make it more difficult to strike effectively.
That said, you still have the very large yes vote of your colleagues, and if you really believe in what you are fighting for then go ahead and do it, but principles may not be as strong throughout the workforce as yours undoubtedly are.
No particular axe to grind on this either way, but whilst this has been going on, there have been some very dismissive, triumphalist and somewhat, dare i say it "smug" postings on this topic from such as mentioned.
"BTW, BALPA is going to re-ballot the pilots once the strike is declared legal by the High Court"
Take it the re-balloting not happening then?
Personally i agree with you that it is another in a long line of victories for "big business", and can be traced back to the election victory of 1979, work ably continued by New Labour in it's obeisance to business interests. However I do find it hard to believe that many BA Balpa members would have been crying at the demise of the unions of all stripes, and most i imagine would have heartily applauded the laws that were brought in to make it more difficult to strike effectively.
That said, you still have the very large yes vote of your colleagues, and if you really believe in what you are fighting for then go ahead and do it, but principles may not be as strong throughout the workforce as yours undoubtedly are.
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Blackcap,
I presume it was the influence of national BALPA that brought this case to a close: not wishing to risk your money. In the long run, if indeed BA succeed with Open Skies, then we shall all suffer as BA mainline's Ts and Cs are reduced.
This is a black day for airline pilots around the world.
I presume it was the influence of national BALPA that brought this case to a close: not wishing to risk your money. In the long run, if indeed BA succeed with Open Skies, then we shall all suffer as BA mainline's Ts and Cs are reduced.
This is a black day for airline pilots around the world.
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All I can say, looks an odd interpretation of law (that because any EU citizen has the right to start up in any EU country, a strike over such a start up is illegal)
But looks like BALPA decided they don't have the pockets or the time to be case law. Pragmatic, to leave it to bigger unions
But looks like BALPA decided they don't have the pockets or the time to be case law. Pragmatic, to leave it to bigger unions
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Notwithstanding the dork element who frequent a thread such as this, some of the comments here are most unfortunate. As one who has nothing to do with BA, I recognise that this battle was not just for BA pilots but for all unionised pilots everywhere. There will no doubt be much carping by the disenchanted and misinformed, but the simple fact is that BA have won a huge victory here, and that is bad news for every member of BALPA in every company. I have not the slightest doubt that BALPA would have stayed to fight it out had they thought they had any chance of winning - most regrettably it appears that they did not. The way is now clear for BA to effectively sideline the BA seniority list and build a parallel world that completely ignores the industrial agreements of previous years. They will undoubtedly do so and I hope there is a will to resist that within BA.
The right to withdraw labour is a fundamental right of all employees won over many years by brave people fighting almost impossible odds - the current European legislation has done away with that right in one fell swoop. An obscure piece of legislation has been used to really stuff the BA pilots. Nonetheless, the necessary lessons will be learnt and next time BALPA will win. If the BA pilots really want to fight this, there are still many ways of doing so - from sickouts to working to rule. My sincere hope is that they will not just walk away and lick their wounds. I truly wish them well and hope they will step up to the plate for Round Two.
The right to withdraw labour is a fundamental right of all employees won over many years by brave people fighting almost impossible odds - the current European legislation has done away with that right in one fell swoop. An obscure piece of legislation has been used to really stuff the BA pilots. Nonetheless, the necessary lessons will be learnt and next time BALPA will win. If the BA pilots really want to fight this, there are still many ways of doing so - from sickouts to working to rule. My sincere hope is that they will not just walk away and lick their wounds. I truly wish them well and hope they will step up to the plate for Round Two.
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If BALPA do not have the financial backing for a protracted case are they not a " tiger without claws". Could the T and G W Union not do a better job with half the membership fees BALPA commands. After all their coffers are huge and surely they could afford the council BALPA couldnt.
Would we be better served by the likes of the Transport and General Workers Union?
Just a thought
Would we be better served by the likes of the Transport and General Workers Union?
Just a thought
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With oil at about US 135pb which business model is best able to survive.?? The OS model (757)with about 50? equivalent club seats or the legacy airline with say 150? equivalent club seats (777).
I ask this question because with jet fuel at circa US 1500 ptonne, the 757 is going to cost about US 75,000 per round trip to JFK ie US 1500 per pax. The 777 will cost about US 150,000 for the same trip or about US 100 per pax.
It is staggering to think that to fly a 744 to OZ & back (say40hrs) will use 400 tonnes which will cost US 600,000. So assuming 400 pax thats US 1500 each, just on fuel.!!! Help aviation is in deep trouble.
I ask this question because with jet fuel at circa US 1500 ptonne, the 757 is going to cost about US 75,000 per round trip to JFK ie US 1500 per pax. The 777 will cost about US 150,000 for the same trip or about US 100 per pax.
It is staggering to think that to fly a 744 to OZ & back (say40hrs) will use 400 tonnes which will cost US 600,000. So assuming 400 pax thats US 1500 each, just on fuel.!!! Help aviation is in deep trouble.
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A specialised Union like BALPA is a quite unique situation in the 21st century but without doubt serves its members far better than a huge non-specific generalised union like T&G, Unite or GMB.
The finance issue is the same with all unions, maybe it should look at the funds available per member to understand the real financial clout of each union. I would suspect in that regard BALPA would be much the same.
Of course there is no union in the UK that can match the financial might of the globalised corporations.
Personally I think the result has become largely irrelevant as BA lurches toward bankruptcy. There is no need to be dissapointed when this malignant embarressment to the British economy final gets lanced.
The finance issue is the same with all unions, maybe it should look at the funds available per member to understand the real financial clout of each union. I would suspect in that regard BALPA would be much the same.
Of course there is no union in the UK that can match the financial might of the globalised corporations.
Personally I think the result has become largely irrelevant as BA lurches toward bankruptcy. There is no need to be dissapointed when this malignant embarressment to the British economy final gets lanced.
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BA are reaping what they have sown!!!!
Kicking a Top Notch operator/politician like Merv Granshaw out of the job at a critical time is criminal.
Saunders, Clarke and McAuslan are all at sea......
A bad day for all UK Pilots.
Kicking a Top Notch operator/politician like Merv Granshaw out of the job at a critical time is criminal.
Saunders, Clarke and McAuslan are all at sea......
A bad day for all UK Pilots.
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The first step is the hardest, our esteemed "leadership" since kicked out dropped the ball on J*. As a result guys languish.
Dixon is the same ilk as lil willy.......
- Won't compete against mainline
- Exchange of opportunities( worthless)
- to defend the mainline brand...
- Only a fleet size of 21 aircraft
- Never an internaitonal operation
Dixon is the same ilk as lil willy.......
Personally, I think this is a case of BA winning the battle but losing the war. Long term, I think this is going to cost BA more in good-will and flexibility. Also, I always felt that we should have been concentrating on improving the T's and C's for the present BA pilot workforce, and not defending pilots that haven't joined the company yet.(And judging by the vitriol posted by some of them on pprune, don't want to be part of BA)
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irrespective of the Openskies debacle, as a union, BALPA now looks pretty much dead in the water. I hope I'm wrong but it's going to take some fancy moves to get any credibility back in the wake of this 
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"Gilded lifestyle....."
Sounds like somebody tried to get hired at BA and didn't make the cut.
How is it that any pilot in this industry ever made a decent wage, supported their family and even sent their children to college? It wasn't the benevolence of their employer that gave pilots a workable schedule and a fair paycheck.
If BA pilot (and counsel) choose to come back and fight another day, so be it. This AA pilot will gladly support them in the next round. The quality of a good airline job did not occur in a vacuum or without struggle. Preserving good jobs will require same.
As for OS....it will end up being a non stop training facilty in this era of pilot shortages. No one will stay for very long. The business model is sketchy at best. We've seen these things come and go. Yawn....
Sounds like somebody tried to get hired at BA and didn't make the cut.
How is it that any pilot in this industry ever made a decent wage, supported their family and even sent their children to college? It wasn't the benevolence of their employer that gave pilots a workable schedule and a fair paycheck.
If BA pilot (and counsel) choose to come back and fight another day, so be it. This AA pilot will gladly support them in the next round. The quality of a good airline job did not occur in a vacuum or without struggle. Preserving good jobs will require same.
As for OS....it will end up being a non stop training facilty in this era of pilot shortages. No one will stay for very long. The business model is sketchy at best. We've seen these things come and go. Yawn....
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I foresee that all new entrants will go through OpenSkies - the cost base of the mainline operation will rise as the seniority of those there rises - then management will stick the knife in when benchmarking their costs against a (more junior) overall workforce at the competition in a few years' time.
Time to start persuading people that it is an unattractive career, to prevent the wave of over-enthusiastic youngsters entering the profession, thus driving down the price of the labour...
Time to start persuading people that it is an unattractive career, to prevent the wave of over-enthusiastic youngsters entering the profession, thus driving down the price of the labour...
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Time to start persuading people that it is an unattractive career, to prevent the wave of over-enthusiastic youngsters entering the profession, thus driving down the price of the labour...
Some of us, over the years, have received a reasonable wage for pushing heavy iron...and generally don't complain.
Others it would seem, apparently think that it is their God -given right to be paid excessively...and yet complain all the time.
BA pilots appear to be in this category.
Now they have had their wake-up call...as it was sure to arrive, at some point.
I would expect that a few former DanAir guys are smiling today, for they didn't get mad....just had to wait a few years...to get even.
BALPA..proven once again, not up to the task.
And never will be.
Why?
Realistic airline economic statistics in todays (not yesterdays) world.
Like it or lump it.
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Painting with the broad brush again, 411a.
BA pilots over the years have fought the fight to even have respectable wages in this business. You benefit from it and "don't complain". If you aren't willing to fight the fight, perhaps you are free-loading on the backs of those who will.
BA pilots over the years have fought the fight to even have respectable wages in this business. You benefit from it and "don't complain". If you aren't willing to fight the fight, perhaps you are free-loading on the backs of those who will.
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BA pilots over the years have fought the fight to even have respectable wages in this business. You benefit from it and "don't complain".
Rather, BA pilot(s) actions have, in the past, proved to be a detriment to advancing pilots pay at other airlines.
SQ is a prime example.
BA guys retired at 55, went to Singapore, and promptly drove down the wages paid.
Went on for years...and this was admitted to me personally by the (then) SQ chairmain JYMP.
No sympathy from me, the BA pilots received (via the courts) what they right and truly deserved.
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411 a you are an *rse, and a crypto fascist to boot - "BA Pilots got what they deserved" - and what would that be exactly? The use of a piece of EU legislation to prevent the right to strike from ever being used by a union without being sequestered in court for damages? Do you understand basic democratic principles, or even care? If the majority of a union vote in a secret ballot for strike action then they have a right to do that in a free and democratic society. You may not like that reality, but it remains true.
The legal arguments used by BA to prevent BALPA from having a strike over OS are a corruption of those democratic rights and the courts will be overruled by law makers in due course. You can not by legal action remove at a stroke a fundamental right in a democratic society. But what of that to you when you continue to connive at every stage in the downfall of the airline pilot as a professional? You really amaze me in your desert eerie - what next for you eh, pilots are not allowed to resign en bloc either, they must work for who they are told to for as long as they are told to for the wages they are told to accept? Only be paid in credits for use at the company store? Same pay rates as the loaders and cleaners? After all its only a manual job, eh? Etc etc?
Your provocative little asides and smugness make me sick, as I am sure they do 99% of other professional pilots here. What the hell happened to you?
The legal arguments used by BA to prevent BALPA from having a strike over OS are a corruption of those democratic rights and the courts will be overruled by law makers in due course. You can not by legal action remove at a stroke a fundamental right in a democratic society. But what of that to you when you continue to connive at every stage in the downfall of the airline pilot as a professional? You really amaze me in your desert eerie - what next for you eh, pilots are not allowed to resign en bloc either, they must work for who they are told to for as long as they are told to for the wages they are told to accept? Only be paid in credits for use at the company store? Same pay rates as the loaders and cleaners? After all its only a manual job, eh? Etc etc?
Your provocative little asides and smugness make me sick, as I am sure they do 99% of other professional pilots here. What the hell happened to you?