FullWings

Reminiscent of the Penta-1 arrival at LHR by a Jumbo many years ago, only this one hit something...

cornwallis

I am sure that a search through this forum will more than cover your questions.At least in this current incident no crew member has felt so desperate about what has happened and the aftermath that they have commited suicide.I never met Glen Stewart but from all reports he was an honourable decent man.

FullWings

That may, or may not be the case but is it relevant?

Back to the two incident/accidents - I mention the 'Penta' as it seemed strikingly similar to the EMA one.
Tired crew at end of long day: check.
Unnoticed/uncorrected localiser deviation: check.
Failed auto-approach: check.
Go-around not flown as per SOPs: check.
Nobody hurt during the proceedings: check.
Suicide afterwards: I sincerely hope not.

Cough

IMR001 - There isn't a 'SINGLE CH' FMA annunciation on the Classic 737. 'Flare' wouldn't annunciate but thats a G/A from 500', not minimums - The likely response to the TOGA button being pressed then is a pitch up even if you don't touch a thing and the A/P drops out due to the pitch/power couple.

I don't think speculation will solve this one. The 737 autoland isn't the most advanced out there so the way forward will be the AAIB and the flight recorders...

JW411

Full Wings:

"Tired crew at end of long day: check".

Since you obviously know, perhaps you could tell the rest of us just how long the crew had been on duty?

I, for one, am dying to find out so please oblige and give us the answer.

Coconutty

Nutloose,

Brilliant picture - From the angle of the impact marks it looks like they were heading straight for the buildings between the passenger and cargo terminals - anyone know how close they got ?


Coconutty

Magplug

Interesting photo from Nutloose....

As we have already seen from previous photos the damage sustained was to the right main gear. This latest photo suggests that the aircraft was so far displaced to the left of the centreline at impact that it was probably outside of the LCZR coverage completely.

Furthermore, if you join up the impact points on the grass you appear to derive a trajectory that is markedly divergent from the runway centreline opening to the left, not parallel to it. This would suggest an approach executed not down the centreline but on a course slightly across it.

This would add more weight to the possibility of them having executed an approach down a pair of incorrect ILS QDM settings...

But surely there is radar monitoring of arriving aircraft on the ILS, a controller would have spotted that immediately?

Five Green

Anyone now where the remains of the gear that broke free ended up in relation to the skid marks ?

Cheers

threemiles

Neither Lczr nor G/s. Skidmarks are way before the G/S touchdown point.

Xploy Ted

The NTSB say that 70% of all transport accidents are fatigue related.

Given the time of this incident it is understandable why people are asking for details of the duty invovled.

I think it is where I would start to try & unravel the problem. We all make mistakes & make them more often when tired. The circadian issue of night flying cannot be disgarded either.

Has anybody have either info on this crew's duties both prior to or on the night in question? Other TNT crews perhaps?

JW411

Well hopefully Full Wings is about to tell us since he has already stated that the crew were tired at the end of a long night.

Of course, it could be that he doesn't really know and that he is simply spouting bullsh*t.

I would like to know but I simply don't know the answer. What I can say is that most of the TNT pilots are Belgian and, much as it might astonish you, most of them live in Belgium.

It is therefore just as likely that the crew had reported for duty just before this flight.

Banzai Eagle

JW411
This is a rumour network dont forget, even if the crew had been on duty for 2 hours then folk will still speculate that crew had been on duty 13, whoops sorry 12 hours. As you say it will all come out in the washup

Magplug

Threemiles,
A valid observation, however if the a/c is tracking an incorrect QDM then the touchdown point generated by following the GS will also be incorrect.

...... The plot thickens

threemiles

Would have thought that GS touchdown point is independant from a course offset, but always at the extended line transmitter-touchdown point. As the transmitter is also offset from the runway. But maybe that is wrong, would be interesting to know, though.

Few Cloudy

If you set the wrong LOC inbound course, the display will be wrongly orientated but the displacement shown is correct.

FC.

Magplug

Agreed, however the autoflight system is attempting to fly an ILS with (effectively) rather more drift than normal, even possibly outside the capabilities of the system. The problem gets worse as you approach the LCZR transmitter and the beam narrows.

The discussion is for the most part achedemic as with the LCZR course offset the resulting arrival will be entirely unpredictable.

Someone care to try it in VMC and report back !

Dream Buster

I'm amazed at how little the outside world has picked up on what's happened here - yet!

Aircraft diverts from usual destination due bad weather to another airfield with equally bad weather (whoops).

Probably very poorly prepared for short diversion - where are the charts? and probably never been there before.... plenty of opportunity to mis set ILS QDM's etc.

Aircraft hits grass with such force that they leave a main wheel behind - that is some impact!

Divert again finally to a cast iron weather diversion airfield with only two wheels.

How much fuel was left? Fumes.

I have done Liege - STN many times in the past and can imagine the poor crew may have been completely exhausted through out.

Well done lads, I reckon you were quite lucky that night but this deserves an extensive inquest so that your colleagues can learn from your less than perfect flight.

I'm quite worried by this one.

silverelise

Shirley the starting point to unravelling the problem is to gather the data - the FDR, CVR, ATC tapes etc. to understand what exactly happened, before being able/trying to explain why?

Pilot Pete

Pure speculation.

same again.

Just like ANY flight then (and more speculation).

At last, something factual.

Erm, more speculation.

And equally they may not have been. More speculation.

What?

I think you will find that the AAIB will conduct an extensive accident investigation.

I think we all are, so FACT would help and the AAIB report will be the definitive document, so shall we wait for that or failing that just put theories forward rather than wild speculation about things like how much fuel they had on board?

PP

Mercenary Pilot

Well said PP.

This thread has so far been interesting and debated in a mature and intelligent manor.

Hopefully we wont have to wait for the full report before some more of the true facts are released.