9 Hurt in Air Transat Emergency Landing in Azores
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OK, so if we accept that the aircraft was properly and adequately fuelled in Toronto, how come an emergency was declared only when just 10 minutes fuel remained?
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Mulligan: Don't know much about ETOPS(always had four to play with) but after 12 years of using Magadan as an enroute alternate our ops discovered the runway there is not stressed for heavies. Never has been. We don't even carry the approach plates anymore. Something for the twins to think about.
Eight Gun Fighter
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We need to know the real causal factors for this incident.
Focusing on Cabin Crew performance however, initial reports indicated a visible(to many of the pax) crew member crying and the CC on the PA doing the Portugese briefing choking in their speech. Guaranteed way to panic the cabin and not at all good performance..although perhaps understandable.
7 out of eight slides deploying is not acceptable or good performance. If there are eight, all eight should deploy. It's called maintenance standards.
Bursting tyres on touchdown raises an interesting question on braking effectiveness.
Edited for (
[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: Rollingthunder ]
Focusing on Cabin Crew performance however, initial reports indicated a visible(to many of the pax) crew member crying and the CC on the PA doing the Portugese briefing choking in their speech. Guaranteed way to panic the cabin and not at all good performance..although perhaps understandable.
7 out of eight slides deploying is not acceptable or good performance. If there are eight, all eight should deploy. It's called maintenance standards.
Bursting tyres on touchdown raises an interesting question on braking effectiveness.
Edited for (
[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: Rollingthunder ]
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Gotta congratulate the guys who pulled this one off (in the yank sense of the phrase...not the British). F..kin' well done!!!
If memory serves, didn't Air Plus (Red Comet kinda-guys) just have a multi-hour delay at Barajas due to a "Scare-Bus" fuel leak on the runway?
Note to SMITH: Man-made Islands ARE available in all the worlds oceans. They belong to the US Navy and have President's names on most (Eisenhower, Truman, Kennedy etc). I doubt seriously, however, that the Airbus is sturdy enough to handle the stopping stresses of a 'trap' though.
Just give me a Seattle product and I'll be happy!
If memory serves, didn't Air Plus (Red Comet kinda-guys) just have a multi-hour delay at Barajas due to a "Scare-Bus" fuel leak on the runway?
Note to SMITH: Man-made Islands ARE available in all the worlds oceans. They belong to the US Navy and have President's names on most (Eisenhower, Truman, Kennedy etc). I doubt seriously, however, that the Airbus is sturdy enough to handle the stopping stresses of a 'trap' though.
Just give me a Seattle product and I'll be happy!
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Having not being there, I will not speculate on what happened, even if it appears to be painfully obvious to some..
I believe that MasterGreen posted an excellent article on the 767 "Double Hush" on the tech forum a while back. My major's (AC) training department and check pilots always made sure that the troops were unofficially exposed in the simulator to the unlikely event of a total engine failure on the Boeing types.
I never saw the same training on the Airbus (320/340) as I believe that we were too immersed in learning the complicated automatics then in flying the aircraft. There never seemed to be enough time left over in the simulator sessions to practice the all engine out situation, which was a pity.
If the TA pilots were never exposed in the simulator to such a event, then in IMHO they performed a awesome job. It appears that the crew were able to step out of the "SOP box", which is unusual in its self, and really show the world how to do it...Good show.
I'm just glad that it was them and not me, for doing it in the simulator is one thing, but actually having to do it for real, is another thing..
What ever the circumstances turn out to be, the pilot's did an EXCELLENT job.
I believe that MasterGreen posted an excellent article on the 767 "Double Hush" on the tech forum a while back. My major's (AC) training department and check pilots always made sure that the troops were unofficially exposed in the simulator to the unlikely event of a total engine failure on the Boeing types.
I never saw the same training on the Airbus (320/340) as I believe that we were too immersed in learning the complicated automatics then in flying the aircraft. There never seemed to be enough time left over in the simulator sessions to practice the all engine out situation, which was a pity.
If the TA pilots were never exposed in the simulator to such a event, then in IMHO they performed a awesome job. It appears that the crew were able to step out of the "SOP box", which is unusual in its self, and really show the world how to do it...Good show.
I'm just glad that it was them and not me, for doing it in the simulator is one thing, but actually having to do it for real, is another thing..
What ever the circumstances turn out to be, the pilot's did an EXCELLENT job.
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Very simple.
There is loads of speculation of why, lets wait for the facts.
There is loads of comments on how the cabin crew / flight crew operated.
Simple answer.... Bl##dy well.
No one hurt
Aircraft saved
By my rules that is a job well done.
So what If a cabin crew member was hesterical... understandable.
It confirms the old saying any landing you walk away from is a good one.
My boss once told me, in the course of your career you may do things i dont agree with. As long as you are on the ground and safe I dont care, I may bollock you but thats my job.
There is loads of speculation of why, lets wait for the facts.
There is loads of comments on how the cabin crew / flight crew operated.
Simple answer.... Bl##dy well.
No one hurt
Aircraft saved
By my rules that is a job well done.
So what If a cabin crew member was hesterical... understandable.
It confirms the old saying any landing you walk away from is a good one.
My boss once told me, in the course of your career you may do things i dont agree with. As long as you are on the ground and safe I dont care, I may bollock you but thats my job.
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I have joked often about the "pedals" on the A330(footrests)being there for a double engine failure.Seems they work!
Think RR should at least be buying new underwear after this incident.
Think RR should at least be buying new underwear after this incident.
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What the hell is that plane the skipper is photographed in? All I could make out were four vintqge looking thrust/prop/mixture levers. Whatever it is he is obviously enjoying flying it!
Enquiring minds need answers! The travelling public has a right to know!
Enquiring minds need answers! The travelling public has a right to know!
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Good Call CaptainX. If we could all just stop being Monday Morning QBacks without even knowing the score for a little while...
The bottom line, as many have said, is that here is a major accident that didn't happen. Everyone is around to tell their story and the airplane is intact. The facts will get known quite quickly. Then, if we (pilots / flight professionals) are really smart, we will learn every lesson that we can from them.
Sure it should never have happened at all - but as we all know that can just be the turn of a friendly card sometimes. This is one to watch and learn from. All critique on the crew is null and void until we have the facts.
The only facts I know for sure are that the A330 was mighty sick, that it was brought to a safe (if not totally damage free) landing and no-one was even badly injured.
The only conclusion I can up with right now is that the crew did a damn fine job.
MG
The bottom line, as many have said, is that here is a major accident that didn't happen. Everyone is around to tell their story and the airplane is intact. The facts will get known quite quickly. Then, if we (pilots / flight professionals) are really smart, we will learn every lesson that we can from them.
Sure it should never have happened at all - but as we all know that can just be the turn of a friendly card sometimes. This is one to watch and learn from. All critique on the crew is null and void until we have the facts.
The only facts I know for sure are that the A330 was mighty sick, that it was brought to a safe (if not totally damage free) landing and no-one was even badly injured.
The only conclusion I can up with right now is that the crew did a damn fine job.
MG
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Rolling thunder,
("7 out of eight slides deploying is not acceptable or good performance. If there are eight, all eight should deploy. It's called maintenance standards.")
Is rather like saying how do you check if a hand grenade is going to work. You cant.
The only pre-flight check of a slide raft is that the gas bottle pressure is in the green/on the dot.
Your second quote:
("Bursting tyres on touchdown raises an interesting question on braking effectiveness.")
I really dont understand where youre coming from here? Basically, on final approach with no power, those guys literally had to drop in on the runway and give themselves enough tarmac to stop the thing - the flare is an afterthought.
("7 out of eight slides deploying is not acceptable or good performance. If there are eight, all eight should deploy. It's called maintenance standards.")
Is rather like saying how do you check if a hand grenade is going to work. You cant.
The only pre-flight check of a slide raft is that the gas bottle pressure is in the green/on the dot.
Your second quote:
("Bursting tyres on touchdown raises an interesting question on braking effectiveness.")
I really dont understand where youre coming from here? Basically, on final approach with no power, those guys literally had to drop in on the runway and give themselves enough tarmac to stop the thing - the flare is an afterthought.
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At the risk of getting firebombed again I'd just like to say that this incident has illustrated perfectly a number of the observations and comments made in the Airline pilots 'lack skills to handle emergencies' thread.
On the one hand, it has shown that when the unexpected - and untrained for - happens then there are pilots that do an exemplary job in getting the aircraft down in one piece. Capt Robert Piché did it - but he was also a bush pilot with 20 years of experience on DC6s.
On the other hand, it also confirms what I had said on the thread - that exceptional piloting skills (such as those of a bush pilot) which only come from experience are required. This thread has also thrown up that few, if any, airlines actually train their crews for a double engine failure.
Now, let's take this scenario. Imagine, say, a UK A330 where both pilots have come up the pure airliner route - CAP509 and then straight into an airline environment. They haven't received any training at all for a double flameout. We then have the Air Transat situation happen. Could they get the aircraft down?
I'd like to think so - but I wouldn't bet on it. Would you?
I'd just like to say that this incident has illustrated perfectly a number of the observations and comments made in the Airline pilots 'lack skills to handle emergencies' thread. On the one hand, it has shown that when the unexpected - and untrained for - happens then there are pilots that do an exemplary job in getting the aircraft down in one piece. Capt Robert Piché did it - but he was also a bush pilot with 20 years of experience on DC6s.
On the other hand, it also confirms what I had said on the thread - that exceptional piloting skills (such as those of a bush pilot) which only come from experience are required. This thread has also thrown up that few, if any, airlines actually train their crews for a double engine failure.
Now, let's take this scenario. Imagine, say, a UK A330 where both pilots have come up the pure airliner route - CAP509 and then straight into an airline environment. They haven't received any training at all for a double flameout. We then have the Air Transat situation happen. Could they get the aircraft down?
I'd like to think so - but I wouldn't bet on it. Would you?
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Wow, I'm now completely aware of the appropriateness of the name of this site!
Some of you would have us believe the a/c left without enough fuel... some would have us believe the fuel was pumped overboard by silly "systems monitors", some would have us believe all the fuel left through some bad mechanic's nostrils, no doubt...
I think only 4 facts are known:
1: It was an Air Transat A330
2: It landed safely with every precious sole alive to tell the tale
3: The truth of it all will be known shortly
4: Some goof/wannabe eggbeater pilot thinks F/A's should be able to take all the abuse of a ship load of frightened people with no fear of their own.
To the crew: My hat is off to you!
To the boys I know at AT: I feel for you!
To those who would lambaste them without any knowledge of truth: Maybe there's some open seats on Aeroflop?
To Mr. Rodrigues: I hope people are kinder to you than you have been to them!
I must say though... It is good to see so many voices of reason in this cauldron of half truth's/rumour, assumption and innuendo.
Cheers,
3hl
Some of you would have us believe the a/c left without enough fuel... some would have us believe the fuel was pumped overboard by silly "systems monitors", some would have us believe all the fuel left through some bad mechanic's nostrils, no doubt...
I think only 4 facts are known:
1: It was an Air Transat A330
2: It landed safely with every precious sole alive to tell the tale
3: The truth of it all will be known shortly
4: Some goof/wannabe eggbeater pilot thinks F/A's should be able to take all the abuse of a ship load of frightened people with no fear of their own.
To the crew: My hat is off to you!
To the boys I know at AT: I feel for you!
To those who would lambaste them without any knowledge of truth: Maybe there's some open seats on Aeroflop?
To Mr. Rodrigues: I hope people are kinder to you than you have been to them!
I must say though... It is good to see so many voices of reason in this cauldron of half truth's/rumour, assumption and innuendo.
Cheers,
3hl
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Oh Gov - give it a break.
I have worked with and trained a host of pilots with backgrounds various from Mil, through Bush / Ag, through CAP509 and all the variations thereof - and your rather infantile approximations don't work at all.
There are no rules about where "good" pilots come from. Anyone who has been in the business for any amount of time knows this. There are natural pilots and gifted pilots and some who just work really hard at at. There are pilots who are good in the Sim and pilots who are good in the World. Some are both - lucky sods.
Some pilots are lucky and some seem to get all the flak. Some are lazy and survive, some work like hell and don't make it. But just being a bush pilot, or an ex Red Arrow doesn't make the cut - not at all.
Some pilots are good stick and rudder people, some are systems people, some are a combination of the previous and people people too. Once again a lucky few are all of this.
In 1914 they took Officers from the Cav to fly, thinking that an affinity for horses might make them more attuned to the problems of the sensitive airplanes of the day. That was not a winner by a long chalk. - I was going to continue this idea - but I will not. It deserves another thread.
Sure, Bush Pilots (and I deliberately Cap that) are good stick and rudder people. They prove it by being around after a few years. Ag pilots likewise. Mil pilots are nearly always good stick and rudder pilots - their background is pretty solid too. However I do resent the slur on the CAP509s (even though I ain't one).
If you want the single leveller - it is training. You take a BP/Ag/Mil and you have a good handler, but there is a lot of work to get him/her Civ orientated and that price is usually accepted and paid. You get a CAP509 or the equivalent and you have the orientation, but no-one thinks to spend the same amount on giving them the stick skills (which, I will agree - they may well lack, unless they are gifted). And then we expect them to get that skill on line. Give me a break. There is a serious divergence of expectations here.
The industry needs to understand where these people come from and what their strengths and weaknesses are. No one pilot can be all things. It just can't be done. Unless we train them.
And that is not that hard. If you have a willing, motivated, basically skilled soul, it can be done - relatively easily. But our training is all arse about face. We train to a tick on the wall. Nothing more, nothing less. The accountants tell us so. Rather we should take each and every individual pilot and train him/her to be the best (s)he can be.
Costs money.... Not as much as you might think. An awful lot of training is repetitive and wasted. If we could somehow identify the areas that each individual needed then the industry would be a different place.
The big question - what does an individual need ? Funny that - I have found that the best person to ask was the student ....
MG
[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: MasterGreen ]
I have worked with and trained a host of pilots with backgrounds various from Mil, through Bush / Ag, through CAP509 and all the variations thereof - and your rather infantile approximations don't work at all.
There are no rules about where "good" pilots come from. Anyone who has been in the business for any amount of time knows this. There are natural pilots and gifted pilots and some who just work really hard at at. There are pilots who are good in the Sim and pilots who are good in the World. Some are both - lucky sods.
Some pilots are lucky and some seem to get all the flak. Some are lazy and survive, some work like hell and don't make it. But just being a bush pilot, or an ex Red Arrow doesn't make the cut - not at all.
Some pilots are good stick and rudder people, some are systems people, some are a combination of the previous and people people too. Once again a lucky few are all of this.
In 1914 they took Officers from the Cav to fly, thinking that an affinity for horses might make them more attuned to the problems of the sensitive airplanes of the day. That was not a winner by a long chalk. - I was going to continue this idea - but I will not. It deserves another thread.
Sure, Bush Pilots (and I deliberately Cap that) are good stick and rudder people. They prove it by being around after a few years. Ag pilots likewise. Mil pilots are nearly always good stick and rudder pilots - their background is pretty solid too. However I do resent the slur on the CAP509s (even though I ain't one).
If you want the single leveller - it is training. You take a BP/Ag/Mil and you have a good handler, but there is a lot of work to get him/her Civ orientated and that price is usually accepted and paid. You get a CAP509 or the equivalent and you have the orientation, but no-one thinks to spend the same amount on giving them the stick skills (which, I will agree - they may well lack, unless they are gifted). And then we expect them to get that skill on line. Give me a break. There is a serious divergence of expectations here.
The industry needs to understand where these people come from and what their strengths and weaknesses are. No one pilot can be all things. It just can't be done. Unless we train them.
And that is not that hard. If you have a willing, motivated, basically skilled soul, it can be done - relatively easily. But our training is all arse about face. We train to a tick on the wall. Nothing more, nothing less. The accountants tell us so. Rather we should take each and every individual pilot and train him/her to be the best (s)he can be.
Costs money.... Not as much as you might think. An awful lot of training is repetitive and wasted. If we could somehow identify the areas that each individual needed then the industry would be a different place.
The big question - what does an individual need ? Funny that - I have found that the best person to ask was the student ....
MG
[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: MasterGreen ]
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Personally, I'd like to see a copy of the voice recordings during this harrowing experience. I bet it was interesting...
It's INSPIRING examples like this one that give me faith in rigorous training programs.
Thanks F/O Junior for the A330 checklist - very, very interesting - I wonder how difficult it would be to concentrate on the checklist in an extremely stressful situation like that one - your training takes over.
WELL DONE to the pilots/FAs involved - I'd like to read their profiles (experience levels) if possible.
Cheers!
It's INSPIRING examples like this one that give me faith in rigorous training programs.
Thanks F/O Junior for the A330 checklist - very, very interesting - I wonder how difficult it would be to concentrate on the checklist in an extremely stressful situation like that one - your training takes over.
WELL DONE to the pilots/FAs involved - I'd like to read their profiles (experience levels) if possible.
Cheers!
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I believe the A330-200 has abiltiy to jettison, not the A330-300 which has a shorter range. It would be interesting to moniter which of the two is consistantly having the a problem with fuel loss. This would make it a little easier to deduce where the problem might be lying.
This was an excellent job performed by the crew. Congratulations!
A340 operator.
This was an excellent job performed by the crew. Congratulations!
A340 operator.
